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[UltraValican]

I can think of a ton of games with female shopkeepers, witches/sorceress, normal female cardboard cutouts. Shit, I can name off more games with those than games that feature prostitution/strippers in any capacity.

[Neonivek]

In most games, you could replace the female love interest with an animal companion and the experience wouldn't be very different, because the female character has about as much leverage on the story line as a dog

That doesn't necessarily say it is wrong. So when "objectification" pops up. Sure you could easily make an argument that the woman is being treated as an object (as most unimportant NPCs are), but when "objectification" instantly assumes it is wrong.

The worst is that "a dog" isn't objectification in the least. Pets are not objects and while they are usually treated as property they have all the thoughts and feelings a person would. Their ONLY limitation is their inability to speak.

Hato replaced all the male love interests with Pidgeons for example as a parody of how shallow male love interests in romance sims are.

Once again my issue isn't that "Objectification" doesn't exist or that "Objectification" isn't wrong (though I think it is neutral... It is how it is used that determines whether or not it is negative) but rather that the discussion is pretty much "Objectification... Whelp that was a fruitful discussion"

[Descan]

* Descan chimes in with the point about Bechdel being averages, not specifics, again. 'v'

[Graknorke]

Shorter; it's where women in games are represented primarily (often exclusively) as sexual ornaments that are there to be exploited by the main character. The elements here are that they are heavily sexualised and have no agency beyond the ways the player chooses to exploit them. This makes a substantial difference to the male characters;

Which is again a reminder that games don't exist in a vacuum, but rather interact with wider culture in ways that may play off of and/or re-enforce harmful stereotypes, prejudices and (yes, I have to use the word) tropes. The negative views of culture at large towards women's sexuality makes sexualised images of women inherently more problematic than such images of men, especially when combined with violence against women or another aspect that plays into such negative stereotypes. And, in what might be the most critical part of her argument;

...the negative impacts of sexual objectification have been studied extensively over the years and the effects on people of all genders are quite clear and very serious. Research has consistently found that exposure to these types of images negatively impacts perceptions and beliefs about real world women and reinforces harmful myths about sexual violence.

Could you clarify the first sentence? Is it that women in games are primarily presented as solely sexual or that there are women presented as primarily sexual? The difference is in how pervasive the culture is.
As for the fact the problem is with pre-existing negative views of sexuality, didn't those in the first place come from it being unacceptable for women to have any sort of expression of sexuality whatsoever? I understand that being a purely sexual character isn't a good way to forward views mind you, but unless you're going to explain to every person why this is the case and why it is you want change, then pushing for the removal of these characters is going to come across as a condemnation of sexuality in media, particularly in woman. It's not like the sentiment's rare.

For the study, not sure I can get behind that. The only people who are going to be worse are people who were already pretty much that way and were just more reserved. Someone who already had strong opinions against that kind of thinking isn't going to be swayed by playing Whore-Murderer 2015.

[Dutchling]

* Descan chimes in with the point about Bechdel being averages, not specifics, again. 'v'

I'm curious where people are getting the stats for those averages from. Seems like an interesting read.

[Vector]

In most games, you could replace the female love interest with an animal companion and the experience wouldn't be very different, because the female character has about as much leverage on the story line as a dog

That doesn't necessarily say it is wrong. So when "objectification" pops up. Sure you could easily make an argument that the woman is being treated as an object (as most unimportant NPCs are), but when "objectification" instantly assumes it is wrong.

Bark, motherfucker, like the dog you are. Woof woof.

Have you never heard something like this? It's a common part of the way women are treated in the real world, and I don't just mean being called "bitch." Dogs may be treated as pets, but they are not considered human. You can own a dog, as property, but you cannot own a woman. And, sorry Neonivek, but I call BS on "Dogs have all the thoughts a person would," unless you're trying to inform me that there are now dogs that can create great art and do calculus.

The typical portrayal of female companions is qualitatively different from the portrayal of male companions. Loyalty, sweetness, and compassion are character traits, but they do not make up a human being. I am not trying to say that all female characters should be portrayed as fully complex and actualized individuals. But there is a CLEAR difference in majority portrayals between the sexes.

How would you feel about playing a bare-chested male model with a 12-inch cock (with its own physics modeling team to get all the veiny details) in every single game you played? To the point where it's seen as a requirement for a good game?

"Dude, they've got a male lead and he doesn't even have a big penis. Not buying."

"Nah, we can't ship this. Why didn't you model that contours of that guy's package to clearly show through his booty shorts? We're alienating our core audience!"

"Male lead? That's too difficult. Cock physics are really hard to model... it'd take a lot of extra work and we're focusing all of our efforts on making sure that the female gameplay is really the best experience it can be."

"Fucking hell, we made a game with a male lead like five years ago. Why are you complaining? Yeah, we didn't market it well and the game is full of bugs, but you assholes are never satisfied."

"Yeah, I know that we could exchange literally every male in this game world with a dildo or a rooster without much changing, but I don't get why you're complaining.  Roosters are treated differently from humans in all cultures, but you know, they've got thoughts and feelings and stuff, just like people."

THESE ARE COMMONLY EXPRESSED OPINIONS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I HEAR THEM CONSTANTLY. PEOPLE, STOP TELLING ME THIS SHIT DOESN'T EXIST AND IT ISN'T A FUCKING PROBLEM. I DON'T CARE IF YOU LIVE IN A VACUUM IN WHICH NO MISOGYNY IS EVER EXPRESSED, BECAUSE THAT IS A BUBBLE, NOT THE WORLD.

I can think of a ton of games with female shopkeepers, witches/sorceress, normal female cardboard cutouts. Shit, I can name off more games with those than games that feature prostitution/strippers in any capacity.

That's fine.

I'll clarify again: there are two problems.

1. Women are overwhelmingly cast as NPCs (objects), very seldom as PCs (humans)
2. Women are overwhelmingly sexualized (a further level of being treated as an object, compounding and entrenching the problem seen in 1)

At its worst, you see the intersection of the issues as follows:

Women are NPCs only, and as NPCs they have the chief role of being sexy. This is an extreme, but we see it often enough.

For the study, not sure I can get behind that. The only people who are going to be worse are people who were already pretty much that way and were just more reserved. Someone who already had strong opinions against that kind of thinking isn't going to be swayed by playing Whore-Murderer 2015.

The point is not about the impact of individual media, but of the picture that the accretion of this media teaches to the gaming public through consumption of successive titles.

See again, the world where literally every male character has a bulging penis of unusual proportions and most of them die while grunting like Gray Fox and displaying death erections.

[XXSockXX]

So, I have never played Diablo 2, for reference. But my understanding is that female corpse poses are posed on their backs with their legs spread, as opposed to male corpses being posed on their side or whatever.

That rings a bell now, I just didn't make the rape association or at least it didn't leave a strong impression. It may not be a particularily striking example, but I get your point.

A player character is patently not most readily seen as an object, because it is a representation of the self. However, even the rare female player characters are typically represented not as a reflection of the player, but as a service object to the player (unless the player prefers to identify as a stripper with a chainsaw, which is certainly a valid choice--but it should not be the only one.). She is not "you," but a doll you are controlling with some nice clothes strung across her lovingly modeled backside (sole male example I know of: Solid Snake).

Maybe I'm not like the majority, but I see player characters as objects too, not as representation of the self. They are a tool or a puppet I'm controlling, which I improve by getting equipment and better stats.
Of course the point stands that the choices you have for a character that looks "cool" are limited to (what is thought of as) appealing to a male teenager. Male characters can be several versions of idealized hero types, while female characters are notably clothing-averse.

[Neonivek]

I call BS on "Dogs have all the thoughts a person would," unless you're trying to inform me that there are now dogs that can create great art and do calculus

And how many women create great works of art and do calculus, How many anyone do? though I like that your objection amounts to "but we are smarter". So congratulations "But they could be replaced by a dumb person".

Having a character be able to be replaced with a dog in a narrative sense doesn't instantly make it negative. Your example ONLY works if we assumed the character was being treated like a dog before hand, but they weren't. So it doesn't work.

You are taking Anita's example where the Damsel is replaced by a dog as a symbol that the woman was being disrespected somehow without understanding what it means to be able to be replaced by a dog.

Which I'll just give away. A dog is basically a "object of affection" without any importance on the dog beyond what the main character projects onto it. Yet why doesn't it exactly work? because a dog can easily be a 3-dimensional character, and often is. So it doesn't work as an example unless I eliminate everything a dog is and just apply the worst case scenario.

But I'll put it this way. Crono from Crono Trigger could be replaced with a dog. Samus from Metroid could be replaced with a dog. Mario from Marioland could be replaced by a dog. Cloud could be replaced by a dog. Ryu could be replaced by a dog. Megaman X could be replaced by a dog. ALL NPCS could be replaced with a dog. All the Bystandards in Grand theft auto could be replaced by dogs. The mooks in videogames could be replaced by a dog.

So when 99.9% of all characters could be replaced by dogs and lose nothing. What the heck are you getting at?

I've played games with "dog" characters. They aren't all Rinoa's dog (whatever his name is).

How would you feel about playing a bare-chested male model

Extremely common.

with a 12-inch cock (with its own physics modeling team to get all the veiny details) in every single game you played?

Can you list the game where the female character's private area is on display?

THESE ARE COMMONLY EXPRESSED OPINIONS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I HEAR THEM CONSTANTLY. PEOPLE, STOP TELLING ME THIS SHIT DOESN'T EXIST AND IT ISN'T A FUCKING PROBLEM. I DON'T CARE IF YOU LIVE IN A VACUUM IN WHICH NO MISOGYNY IS EVER EXPRESSED, BECAUSE THAT IS A BUBBLE, NOT THE WORLD.

Ok, ignore what I said before that was just nitpicking because I think your putting words in my mouth.

I am not saying it doesn't exist, I am not saying it isn't a problem, I am not saying that any of this is acceptable, and I am not saying I don't notice.

I am just saying that the Nuance is lost in the discussion.

For example I could easily take what you said and just assume that your stance is that women should remain chaste and pure and that they shouldn't have any shred of sexuality in games. Which isn't what you are saying, but it stems naturally from the dialog. Especially since you used imprecise hyperbole to make your point.

The meat of these discussions, the important parts, is just buried too deep for light to escape.

 

Women are overwhelmingly cast as NPCs (objects), very seldom as PCs (humans)

I would argue based on genre. Lets not "Shooters are the only genre that exists" in this conversation.

For example there are very few RPGs where there are no female characters. Point and Clicks have near 50/50 female to male lead ratio. Platformers and adventure games have a lot of female leads. and horror games have a majority female lead (for a negative reason).

Women are overwhelmingly sexualized (a further level of being treated as an object, compounding and entrenching the problem seen in 1)

Qualify!

For example what is the difference between how Tekken sexualizes versus Soul Calibur? What is the difference between Bayonetta and X-blade? What is the difference between 50 shades of Grey (as a literary example) versus Romeo and Juliet?

Because the problem isn't JUST that it is overused it is in how it is used. Yet how do you use it?

[Putnam]

I can think of a ton of games with female shopkeepers, witches/sorceress, normal female cardboard cutouts. Shit, I can name off more games with those than games that feature prostitution/strippers in any capacity.

I'm not taking a side here, just going to say spewing anecdotes never adds anything to a discussion.

[Dutchling]

I can think of a ton of games with female shopkeepers, witches/sorceress, normal female cardboard cutouts. Shit, I can name off more games with those than games that feature prostitution/strippers in any capacity.

I'm not taking a side here, just going to say spewing anecdotes never adds anything to a discussion.

Has anyone here said anything that is not an anecdote?
 
Just saying "most games have X" without anything to back it up is not different from saying "in my experience..." or "I feel like...".

[Putnam]

It was the shortest, most egregious example I could quote. It does kinda look like I singled someone out for that, but then people would have thought I was doing that anyway (which isn't a reflection on their character, of course).

[Neonivek]

You have to use Anecdotal evidence anyhow because one of the main arguments is based around how often a trope is used.

[UltraValican]

THESE ARE COMMONLY EXPRESSED OPINIONS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I HEAR THEM CONSTANTLY. PEOPLE, STOP TELLING ME THIS SHIT DOESN'T EXIST AND IT ISN'T A FUCKING PROBLEM. I DON'T CARE IF YOU LIVE IN A VACUUM IN WHICH NO MISOGYNY IS EVER EXPRESSED, BECAUSE THAT IS A BUBBLE, NOT THE WORLD.

THESE ARE NOT COMMONLY EXPRESSED OPINIONS THE OTHER WAY AROUND. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THESE SAID IN ANY SERIOUS CAPACITY. PEOPLE, STOP TELLING ME THIS SHIT EXITS AND IS A FUCKING PROBLEM. I DON"T CARE IF YOU LIVE IN A BUBBLE WHERE LUDICROUS STRAWMEN EXIST, BECAUSE THAT IS A BUBBLE, NOT THE WORLD.

People don't buy games because the main character tickles their pickle. They buy them for fun and engaging gameplay.

1. Women are overwhelmingly cast as NPCs (objects), very seldom as PCs (humans)
2. Women are overwhelmingly sexualized (a further level of being treated as an object, compounding and entrenching the problem seen in 1)

Most PCs act as objects in their own right. They're a mere tool to be used by the player to interact with the game world.

I can think of a ton of games with female shopkeepers, witches/sorceress, normal female cardboard cutouts. Shit, I can name off more games with those than games that feature prostitution/strippers in any capacity.

I'm not taking a side here, just going to say spewing anecdotes never adds anything to a discussion.

Except when the argument is that the majority of video games are like this when that is very clearly not the case.

And sspewing how something adds nothing to a discussion in turn, adds nothing to the discussion.

[Dutchling]

People, caps lock is not cruise control for cool.

I mean, it is, but not here.

[Putnam]

Your claim that it's "absolutely not the case" is just as suspect as the other claims unless you present some actual evidence.