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Author Topic: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'  (Read 309237 times)

alexandertnt

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2475 on: September 16, 2013, 01:40:06 am »

See the thing is misleading documentaries don't cause constructive discussion, they just spread misinformation and controversy. I would be very surprised if you can find a biologist who is happy about pro-creationist documentaries because of all the people getting into the field having watched one.

That is, of course, assuming the "documentries" are misleading...
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN!

Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2476 on: September 16, 2013, 01:43:38 am »

Well...
As for the rest, I've disagreed with some of her points before.  She doesn't back up most of her claims scientifically, she just presents some evidence which supports what she's saying.  I'm honestly not sure, but I *think* that's how documentaries are supposed to work - not proving, but educating or raising awareness.  These aren't thesis papers after all.  That's why I try to figure out what she's trying to say, not what she literally says.  After all, some of her implications are a lot more extreme than what she specifically claims!  And when those implications are too crazy, they bother me. 
I think at this point Rolan and I have come to common ground that she is being misleading, anybody else still not won over?

alexandertnt

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2477 on: September 16, 2013, 01:52:03 am »

Quote
anybody else still not won over?

Yes. You have not explained why they are supposedly misleading, you have only agreed with Rolan7.


Are her videos even documentries? (I dont recall her ever claiming them to be, but I might be wrong here).
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN!

Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2478 on: September 16, 2013, 01:56:28 am »

Well I don't really think they qualify as documentaries, but I don't have a strict definition and they look close enough to count I guess.

They are misleading because they assert that certain tropes are harmful (They are not) and they came about through some evil, ever present patriarchy (they did not).

alexandertnt

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2479 on: September 16, 2013, 02:09:44 am »

They are misleading because they assert that certain tropes are harmful (They are not) and they came about through some evil, ever present patriarchy (they did not).

Claiming she thinks that harmful tropes came about through some "evil" patriarchy is misleading.
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN!

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2481 on: September 16, 2013, 02:24:31 am »

They are misleading because they assert that certain tropes are harmful (They are not) and they came about through some evil, ever present patriarchy (they did not).

Claiming she thinks that harmful tropes came about through some "evil" patriarchy is misleading.

I might have to look at her videos again, but I am pretty sure she does a "Because patriarchy" at least once.

But it might have been another argument I am thinking of.
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alexandertnt

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2482 on: September 16, 2013, 02:32:22 am »

Only if you ignore her videos.

Do you have an example showing that she thinks that harmful tropes came about through some "evil" patriarchy?
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN!

Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2483 on: September 16, 2013, 02:35:57 am »

You know we have been over this and I'm really not in the mood to go over three 20 - 30 minute long videos. I am not going in for that kind of 'Read through the entire monologue looking for various details just so I can dismiss it out of hand' bullshit today. If you want evidence that she is full of shit I suggest you read the damn thread, we have been going on about this since the dawn of time.

Cheeetar

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2484 on: September 16, 2013, 02:45:23 am »

You know we have been over this and I'm really not in the mood to go over three 20 - 30 minute long videos. I am not going in for that kind of 'Read through the entire monologue looking for various details just so I can dismiss it out of hand' bullshit today. If you want evidence that she is full of shit I suggest you read the damn thread, we have been going on about this since the dawn of time.

If you're tired of attempting to be constructive, it might be time to not post for a while.
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I've played some mafia.

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.

Max White

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2485 on: September 16, 2013, 02:49:47 am »

Watching the same video series over and over just to repeat the same points is constructive now? No I call bullshit. Constructive is moving forward, not constantly demanding I drudge up the same points every time somebody couldn't be fucked.

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2486 on: September 16, 2013, 03:02:29 am »

Well to admit right now the topic is whether or not her message justifies the means she uses to convey it.

At least that is from what I can gather.

Not whether or not she said "evil patriarchy" at any point. Then again to say that her message is weak, is one way to go about it.

Mind you I am on the "not justified" end of the fence, but have no real desire to argue it.
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alexandertnt

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2487 on: September 16, 2013, 03:27:32 am »

Not whether or not she said "evil patriarchy" at any point. Then again to say that her message is weak, is one way to go about it.

You see, you could argue that her message is weak, or that she may have had some facts wrong or something.

But if people keep slipping in words like "evil", and distorting and misquoting her, it becomes less and less meaningful to use as an argument.

The fact is, using words like "evil" implies malice, and it implies that she believes groups of males (the "evil patriarchy") are maliciously creating these tropes. Now, if she said that, I would agree that she is speaking shit in this case.

But from what I can tell, she seems to believe that the gaming industry is male dominated (which is largely supported by by statistics, and not a bad thing in itself), and that the result is "tropes" that could be considered offensive to women are created by this industry, which may not be aware they are offensive (due to the aformentioned point).

The two are very different.
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN!

Neonivek

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2488 on: September 16, 2013, 07:23:18 am »

Quote
But if people keep slipping in words like "evil", and distorting and misquoting her, it becomes less and less meaningful to use as an argument.

Sorry this made me laugh, a lot. I'll leave why out of it so this conversation doesn't go straight downhill.

But I see what you are saying. Exaggerating makes the argument weaker.

Quote
The fact is, using words like "evil" implies malice, and it implies that she believes groups of males (the "evil patriarchy") are maliciously creating these tropes

That, however, can be argued. Especially in the case of Dinosaur Planet from Anita's viewpoint.

Though it probably wouldn't lead to worthwhile conversation given that it standardly saying a feminist believes in a evil malicious patriarchy and overlooks society and puts down women in order to sustain the power of men and keep women down is the equivalent of saying they are not worth listening to. (And note so we don't have hair splitting, I am using Patriarchy in the same way someone would use "The Government" or "The Combine". I am pretty sure there are organizations that try to put down women as their life goal)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 07:44:00 am by Neonivek »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« Reply #2489 on: September 16, 2013, 07:52:35 am »

Yes it does; she entered the mainstream and impacted the gaming industry on her persona as an inside video gamer. EA took note of her notes in production of Mirror's Edge 2, and it is going to be interesting to see what EA does next [keep changes, backtrack all over the place?]. There is also the moral issue on the fact that she profited off of a social movement greatly, based off of a lie, when she could have honestly just started off from the start with a select few examples in depth, also learning on her own way.
These both amount to "She may have bent the truth as part of her Kickstarter" (she may have also gone off videogames for a while and picked them back up again after that lecture, or bent the truth in her lecture in order to try and illustrate the point she was making).  I don't see how it matters.  She still delivered the product she was promising, and the validity of her arguments aren't affected by whether she played video games a lot or not before making the series.

However, more to the point, you seem to be dramatically misrepresenting her original pitch.  "I am an expert on videogames" (or even "I am someone who really likes videogames") wasn't a core element of it at all.

Her Kickstarter opens with "I love playing video games but I’m regularly disappointed in the limited and limiting ways women are represented".  That isn't incompatible with what she says in the lecture - she enjoys the gameplay in videogames, but doesn't like them due to the male-dominated nature of them.  She calls herself a "gamer" in the next paragraph, and then that's it.  That's all the "insider knowledge" she claims to have.

She also says "I will be researching and playing hundreds of titles from across the gaming industry".  This makes it perfectly clear that she has no specialist knowledge (or even prior knowledge) of the games she would be talking about in the videos, which is why I find this accusation so totally meaningless.

Then there is also the allegation that she used other people's footage without so much as crediting them, passing it off as her own; i.e. plagiarism.
Those allegations aren't explored in the video at all.  If it's true she should certainly have credited them, but I don't think you can reasonably claim ownership of a video of someone else's game.

Simply put, many of the criticisms lain against her have now been emboldened if what is seen is true. Those saying she avoided games that satisfied her goals, or was blindly stumbling through games she had little knowledge of, choosing games heavily outdated or even completely warping in appearance order to further her argument - would be right.
I don't think those criticisms are affected at all.  Being a gamer doesn't mean that you've played every single game, so it wouldn't stop you from avoiding games that satisfy your goals or not really understanding the games you're critiquing.  Particularly since she made it clear she was going to be playing a lot of games for the first time as part of the project.
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