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[Glowcat]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.  The other factors may contribute, but I'm saying they're trivial.  Do... disagree?

Yes. I'm saying the fact that she is a feminist, a woman, talking about 'sensitive issues' or talking about video games has absolutely sod all compared to the massive unmoderated medium that has propagated insults that fly with the ease of butter in cogs.

Then you're wrong. I've yet to see a man suffer a string of violent misogynistic hatred for his troubles and most women who post on the Internet relate that they suffer far more abuse than men who're outspoken about certain issues in a way that is qualitatively different. There are always some trigger issues with a group of people who feel violent responses are appropriate, such as politics or religion, but none receive as much undeserved hatred as feminism spoken by a woman.

[Neonivek]

I've yet to see a man suffer a string of violent misogynistic hatred for his troubles

Ok, can you think of a man in a similar situation as Anita who didn't get the same hatred?

"There are always some trigger issues with a group of people who feel violent responses are appropriate, such as politics or religion, but none receive as much undeserved hatred as feminism spoken by a woman."

Well I could argue that feminism deserves it just as much as most politics and religion (Feminism has just as much lies and propaganda as anything else)... but I won't.

Instead I will ask you why do you think that feminism spoken by a female gets more hatred then anything else?

May I add that there is probably more hatred on the internet for Males saying they like My Little Pony then there is over Anita.

Feminism has one of the hate cultures, it is to be expected.

[Glowcat]

I've yet to see a man suffer a string of violent misogynistic hatred for his troubles

Ok, can you think of a man in a similar situation as Anita who didn't get the same hatred?

Pretty much every male feminist I follow hasn't received more than snide comments. The closest I've seen was a photoshop image, but still most hatred I see thrown at him isn't nearly as bad as that, plus the rape threats, plus the "hilarious" misogynistic responses, that women have received.

[Neonivek]

plus the rape threats

That is because you can't rape a man unless it is man on man. Which would be admitting you are gay.

Or to be more serious... Rape threats are used against women because they are empty threats made to shock the observer. Why would a man, who doesn't carry that level of shock, get rape threats even if he is hated?

That and even though I was mostly joking, there is a strong belief that a man cannot be raped anyhow.

[Loud Whispers]

Yes. I'm saying the fact that she is a feminist, a woman, talking about 'sensitive issues' or talking about video games has absolutely sod all compared to the massive unmoderated medium that has propagated insults that fly with the ease of butter in cogs.

Then you're wrong. I've yet to see a man suffer a string of violent misogynistic hatred for his troubles

Misogynistic hatred? As opposed to just regular misogynistic love?
Insults tailored to exploiting nerves and insecurities will be as such. Although now that you mention it, Sinfest went under the bus doing exactly what you described, for turning into Patriarchy: Now in 3D.

and most women who post on the Internet relate that they suffer far more abuse than men who're outspoken about certain issues in a way that is qualitatively different. There are always some trigger issues with a group of people who feel violent responses are appropriate, such as politics or religion, but none receive as much undeserved hatred as feminism spoken by a woman.

Yes, these wonderful unverifiable anecdotes sure are convincing. You can find any group anywhere that feels it is victimized more than everyone else for the mildest of things. Like video games! Where the majority of death threats are against men, where the majority of abuse is hurled against men and everyone's insulting everyone rather happily.
But wait there's more! Men are also 3 times more likely to be violently assaulted on the streets than women. Oh joy.

There are always some trigger issues with a group of people who feel violent responses are appropriate, such as politics or religion, but none receive as much undeserved hatred as feminism spoken by a woman.

You're going to use Anita as an example of instant trigggerrrrs? If you want an example of a feminist woman being given death threats because she is a feminist woman, then you need only look towards women like Amina, who actually face such things for their beliefs. And then if you want to quantify the hatred targeted towards feminists, atheists, subscribers to any religion, members of any civic or ethnic group... The furore of feminists just doesn't stand up to comparison with genocides.

May I add that there is probably more hatred on the internet for Males saying they like My Little Pony then there is over Anita.

The worse they both get is roughly the same as they get lumped under 'cultural marxists.'

[scriver]

You're going to use Anita as an example of instant trigggerrrrs? If you want an example of a feminist woman being given death threats because she is a feminist woman, then you need only look towards women like Amina, who actually face such things for their beliefs. And then if you want to quantify the hatred targeted towards feminists, atheists, subscribers to any religion, members of any civic or ethnic group... The furore of feminists just doesn't stand up to comparison with genocides.

You're arguing against Glowcat by proving her point?

[Loud Whispers]

You're going to use Anita as an example of instant trigggerrrrs? If you want an example of a feminist woman being given death threats because she is a feminist woman, then you need only look towards women like Amina, who actually face such things for their beliefs. And then if you want to quantify the hatred targeted towards feminists, atheists, subscribers to any religion, members of any civic or ethnic group... The furore of feminists just doesn't stand up to comparison with genocides.

You're arguing against Glowcat by proving her point?

I don't disagree with everything but the last point in particular. Amongst other things.

[Glowcat]

Misogynistic hatred? As opposed to just regular misogynistic love?

Your ability to nitpick language choice is noted.

Insults tailored to exploiting nerves and insecurities will be as such. Although now that you mention it, Sinfest went under the bus doing exactly what you described, for turning into Patriarchy: Now in 3D.

Define what you mean by under the bus. Particularly examples of a mass complaint against him that isn't just argumentation or craven snipes, but rather overt loathing and sexually abusive.

Yes, these wonderful unverifiable anecdotes sure are convincing. You can find any group anywhere that feels it is victimized more than everyone else for the mildest of things. Like video games! Where the majority of death threats are against men, where the majority of abuse is hurled against men and everyone's insulting everyone rather happily.

Because I'm totally making it all up. I won't entertain your unwarranted skepticism in this manner any more than I would a AGW denier's or creationist's insistence that the facts aren't there.

You're going to use Anita as an example of instant trigggerrrrs? If you want an example of a feminist woman being given death threats because she is a feminist woman, then you need only look towards women like Amina, who actually face such things for their beliefs. And then if you want to quantify the hatred targeted towards feminists, atheists, subscribers to any religion, members of any civic or ethnic group... The furore of feminists just doesn't stand up to comparison with genocides.

Can you explain what the threats Amina suffers has to do with the ones Anita suffers... except that they're the same kind of bullshit in an environment where those people have an easier time actually carrying the threats out? Because you seem to be trying to dismiss hatred against western women with hatred against women in other countries, so I'm a bit confused by what you're arguing here.

May I add that there is probably more hatred on the internet for Males saying they like My Little Pony then there is over Anita.

There is hatred and it is undeserved, but it's not targeted in force at specific people. It also often ties into hatred against women because the common half-assed reason for the hatred is along the lines of: "men shouldn't watch shows for little girls", which happens enough with shows "meant for women" as well. Misogyny tends to come with a lot of splash damage.

[Loud Whispers]

Your ability to nitpick language choice is noted.

I do take precautions to preserving its worth.

Insults tailored to exploiting nerves and insecurities will be as such. Although now that you mention it, Sinfest went under the bus doing exactly what you described, for turning into Patriarchy: Now in 3D.

Define what you mean by under the bus.

Bearing the brunt of the internet hate machine

Particularly examples of a mass complaint against him that isn't just argumentation or craven snipes, but rather overt loathing and sexually abusive.

Most of the threads where this happened are non-extant and weren't archived, but from the Oglaf vs Sinfest one the abuse can be paraphrased as:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Because I'm totally making it all up. I won't entertain your unwarranted skepticism in this manner any more than I would a AGW denier's or creationist's insistence that the facts aren't there.

Your original point was that feminist women find the most abuse and for simply being feminist women. Proving feminist women handle abuse on the internet is still steps away from proving it is worse than the abuse the majority face.

Can you explain what the threats Amina suffers has to do with the ones Anita suffers... except that they're the same kind of bullshit in an environment where those people have an easier time actually carrying the threats out? Because you seem to be trying to dismiss hatred against western women with hatred against women in
other countries, so I'm a bit confused by what you're arguing here.

On Anita's case, Anita is receiving threats and insults about feminism because she is being harassed by trolls, who are doing everything that will piss her and her followers off. In Amina's case, she received threats and insults towards her because she threatens the societal vice grip on women and their own autonomous freedom.
I'm dismissing hatred towards one person on the internet instead of systematic oppression.
People have literally been using sites which are famous for porn and making flash games about beating up celebrities as examples of patriarchy and Anita being right. Essentially, when you take the massive indirected hate that has become common courtesy on the internet and you make it about feminism, you are ignoring the cause.

May I add that there is probably more hatred on the internet for Males saying they like My Little Pony then there is over Anita.

There is hatred and it is undeserved, but it's not targeted in force at specific people. It also often ties into hatred against women because the common half-assed reason for the hatred is along the lines of: "men shouldn't watch shows for little girls", which happens enough with shows "meant for women" as well. Misogyny tends to come with a lot of splash damage.

It is targeted in force at specific people. And don't make the hatred of men into the hatred of women. The reason why bronies are persecuted has nothing to do with feminism of patriarchy.

[scriver]

The only reason guys are "persecuted" for liking mlp is because it's seen as girly and girly things are bad. Don't loose sight of the bigger picture and how this shit is connected.

[Glowcat]

I do take precautions to preserving its worth.

Looks more like a meaningless attempt to gain a one up.

Particularly examples of a mass complaint against him that isn't just argumentation or craven snipes, but rather overt loathing and sexually abusive.

Most of the threads where this happened are non-extant and weren't archived, but from the Oglaf vs Sinfest one the abuse can be paraphrased as:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So snide comments about him being a self-hating man. You aren't really disproving anything I've said. I never argued that men were entirely free from online abuse, much less that feminist men were.

Your original point was that feminist women find the most abuse and for simply being feminist women. Proving feminist women handle abuse on the internet is still steps away from proving it is worse than the abuse the majority face.

Actually my original point was that women in general suffer more of a sexist and threatening backlash for being outspoken on issues than men were. I did however get caught up in one particular example that seems to garner the most attention.

And I already told you that I'm not entertaining your hyperskepticism. If you don't think there's sufficient evidence in those three links then I'm not really eager to continue arguing with you.

On Anita's case, Anita is receiving threats and insults about feminism because she is being harassed by trolls, who are doing everything that will piss her and her followers off. In Amina's case, she received threats and insults towards her because she threatens the societal vice grip on women and their own autonomous freedom.

You have blinders on if you don't see the two as related. The threats against Anita are no less real than those against Amina, but rather have less ability to be carried out. You're throwing up an arbitrary distinction between the two when systematic problems are the cause of both. The latter having a greater history of violence enforcement in the region, whereas in the west their threats tend to be largely impotent. Outside a few examples. It is still a threat that a woman on the internet doesn't have the luxury to dismiss offhand.

People have literally been using sites which are famous for porn and making flash games about beating up celebrities as examples of patriarchy and Anita being right. Essentially, when you take the massive indirected hate that has become common courtesy on the internet and you make it about feminism, you are ignoring the cause.

And what cause it that? Random bitter teenage assholes who make violent video games over celebrity rage? Anita got her own little hate game in response to her speaking on issues, not because of the general mindless hatred of the internet mob. You act as though the harassment itself had no actual motivation beyond the lulz.

It is targeted in force at specific people. And don't make the hatred of men into the hatred of women. The reason why bronies are persecuted has nothing to do with feminism of patriarchy.

Yeah... no. You aren't even proposing an alternative cause here and you can't just pretend that the "it's a girl's show!" thing doesn't regularly pop up as justification for (general) brony hate. Bronies who get creepy with it can be lambasted for that, and some shortsighted people see all bronies as engaging in that behavior, but the scorn due to watching the show itself tends to focus on the feminine aspect.

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The only reason guys are "persecuted" for liking mlp is because it's seen as girly and girly things are bad. Don't loose sight of the bigger picture and how this shit is connected.

Sweden doesn't get nearly so much flak for blurring gender roles, it's much bigger than that. The fandom had strange starts, was rifled with wolves in the herd, sheep that acted like wolves in the herd, genuinely disgusting things were done within the fandom and it was propelled to infamy, to such an extent where reviling bronies became as much a movement as labeling yourself as one.

Looks more like a meaningless attempt to gain a one up.

Language works best as expressions than points and high scores.

So snide comments about him being a self-hating man. You aren't really disproving anything I've said. I never argued that men were entirely free from online abuse, much less that feminist men were.

-but rather overt and sexually abusive. What exactly was that again?
That was not even the peak of the iceberg of overt and sexually abusive.

Actually my original point was that women in general suffer more of a sexist and threatening backlash for being outspoken on issues than men were. I did however get caught up in one particular example that seems to garner the most attention.

And I already told you that I'm not entertaining your hyperskepticism. If you don't think there's sufficient evidence in those three links then I'm not really eager to continue arguing with you.

You haven't shown enthusiasm at arguing at all really.

You have blinders on if you don't see the two as related. The threats against Anita are no less real than those against Amina, but rather have less ability to be carried out. You're throwing up an arbitrary distinction between the two when systematic problems are the cause of both.

The arbitrary distinction is called 'intent.'

People have literally been using sites which are famous for porn and making flash games about beating up celebrities as examples of patriarchy and Anita being right. Essentially, when you take the massive indirected hate that has become common courtesy on the internet and you make it about feminism, you are ignoring the cause.

And what cause it that? Random bitter teenage assholes who make violent video games over celebrity rage? Anita got her own little hate game in response to her speaking on issues, not because of the general mindless hatred of the internet mob. You act as though the harassment itself had no actual motivation beyond the lulz.

It is targeted in force at specific people. And don't make the hatred of men into the hatred of women. The reason why bronies are persecuted has nothing to do with feminism of patriarchy.

Yeah... no. You aren't even proposing an alternative cause here and you can't just pretend that the "it's a girl's show!" thing doesn't regularly pop up as justification for (general) brony hate. Bronies who get creepy with it can be lambasted for that, and some shortsighted people see all bronies as engaging in that behavior, but the scorn due to watching the show itself tends to focus on the feminine aspect.

A justification yet not the cause. I would recommend avoiding this derail, we have threads that attest to this forum and its relation with mlp.

[Glowcat]

You haven't shown enthusiasm at arguing at all really.

Why would I? Right now I'm sickened by the blithe dismissive behavior to the point where even outrage can't carry my will to argue. You'll have to wait for the brain chemistry to align with tolerating bullshit for the sake of argument again.

[Rolan7]

Looks more like a meaningless attempt to gain a one up.

Language works best as expressions than points and high scores.

The unintentional irony is killing me.  You have the gall to start insulting spelling and grammar, yet you continue to speak nonsense such as this?  I didn't call it out earlier because I was usually able to discern your meaning.  Why would I criticize your spelling when I was destroying the arguments you were attempting to express?  I think it says a lot about your confidence in your argument that you felt the need to call out a single misspelled word, rather than spend that time actually discussing anything of importance.

At least you aren't resorting to reaction images, though -

Welp.

[palsch]

There are a hell of a lot of distractions here.

It's not about the internet. The sort of 'background radiation' misogyny I was talking about happens in the real world as well. If anything the internet makes it more visible for those of us not on the receiving end. Which was the point in Anita collecting those tweets.

It's certainly not about anonymity. Look at the twitter accounts. That's people putting their names and faces on this kind of abuse. Anonymity only amplifies behaviour that would cause a problem for the person doing it. This sort of casual sexism so rarely has consequences that it doesn't matter. Hell, it can be an advantage to both men and women to openly parrot standard misogynist and anti-feminist tropes. Keeps you in good with the boys club.

It's not just feminist women who get it, and not just for being feminist. Look at the response to any conservative female politicians on progressive and liberal sites. It's the same misogynistic slurs, references to her appearance and sexuality, etc. Look at the attacks on female authors, musicians, artists, TV personalities, whatever, who don't even have public opinions about feminism.

Don't get me wrong, the worst attacks are saved for those who speak out the most. But the general background radiation concept is not about people being targets. It's about the casual abuse, sexualisation, judgements of worth based on their looks, gendered slurs and view that they should just suck it up for not being 'normal' (eg, male) that is the norm for women all over the place.


The problem is I can't really prove this with a link just because it's such a broad phenomenon. You can't provide such evidence in a neat little package for people who have no actual interest to look at it.

Instead it's a matter of paying attention. Looking at how people talk about and to women in comparison to men. Listening to women telling stories of their experiences. Watching how other women respond to those stories.