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[scriver]

Neonivek. The authors are the ones coming with that excuse. And they came up with that half arsed excuse so they wouldn't have to implement Krogan females.

Isn't that kind of like saying they came up with a half assed excuse with Asari so they wouldn't have to implement Asari males, besides there wasn't any need to come up with an excuse not to implement them considering there are several races that do not have female combatants which do not have a similar excuse.

The difference being that Asari was designed as a single-gender species from the beginning, the Krogan were not. Then Bioware got criticised for not showing any females of their female-male species in ME1, and thus came up with a stupid excuse for why you don't get to see any female Krogans even when you go to their home planet in ME2. And it still comes down to not wanting to bother implementing female Krogans. The "hidden female camps" narrative stems from their decision to not implement females, the lack of females does not stem from the narrative.

Mad props to Game of Thrones for Brienne then?

Except she isn't really ugly. She's far from a female Steve Buscemi.

[Loud Whispers]

Because women have to be idealized, but men don't?  And because ugly men get a voice and a representation, and uglier women usually don't?

Why is there an injustice perceived here? That representation of one must mean an assault on all others?

Also, relevant:

Spoiler: Perceived injustice (click to show/hide)

Bottom left Texas one has me cracking up

I want to find it on the internet but my search skills fail me, it was in a museum I visited where they showcased the ancient Greek artisans' works, where for a certain period of time their sculptures became increasingly more and more realistic, culminating in one surviving statue of a boy:
His muscles were defined, yet almost lost under fat. His ribs showed over a flat belly, and there was nothing really remarkable about it other than it's total realism.
Then after that, everything started looking more and more like avatars of the gods, and further from that - using imagery for more deep, intricate meaning, from the superficial aspects to the more esoteric, like the angle they were carved from.

[Loud Whispers]

Spoiler: Perceived injustice (click to show/hide)

Bottom left Texas one has me cracking up

Totally forgot to add, the point of adding this image was just to highlight how erroneous the belief that woman are the only sex idealized. Strong, broad and tall man with chiseled jaw and deep eyes? Sound familiar?
I just don't like "& you also" arguments, they seem rather... Empty.

[Vector]

I didn't say that men only are idealized.  I've said, over and over again, that there's a range of portrayals for men that simply doesn't exist for women, and that it has a real-world effect on people's expectations, their feelings about themselves, and ultimately their actions.  It's a problem.  More realistic works still tend to idealize or denigrate women to a disproportionate extent, and it is bad for the female human beings who view them (For fucking example).

And no, I'm not fighting against Greek statuary.  I'm fighting against things like, say, the overwhelming use of photoshop on pictures of women to make them truly impossibly beautiful, while pretending to be real pictures.  I'm fighting against the utterly relentless stereotyping women receive.

[Neonivek]

Then Bioware got criticised for not showing any females of their female-male species in ME1, and thus came up with a stupid excuse for why you don't get to see any female Krogans even when you go to their home planet in ME2

That excuse I was talking about? Yeah that was the first game. I didn't hear their excuse for the second game.

[Kansa]

The difference being that Asari was designed as a single-gender species from the beginning, the Krogan were not. Then Bioware got criticised for not showing any females of their female-male species in ME1, and thus came up with a stupid excuse for why you don't get to see any female Krogans even when you go to their home planet in ME2. And it still comes down to not wanting to bother implementing female Krogans. The "hidden female camps" narrative stems from their decision to not implement females, the lack of females does not stem from the narrative.

I'm still not really sure why they needed an excuse however, we do not see any female turians until some of the DLC for ME3 and they are supposedly a race that has a similar female to male ratio as humans. Why have an excuse for Krogans and not for Turians then? It makes no sense to make up a half assed excuse for one race and the leave the rest of them without an excuse, if they really cared that much about it they would have done it for all races that don't show females and not just a select few. You might be right but it just doesn't make sense to me that they would do it just for Krogans and leave all of the other races with the same problem but without an excuse for it.

[Descan]

Pointing to a subset of males idealized isn't an argument, when the complaint is "I have never seen an ugly woman [excepting characters who's only defining feature is that they're ugly], and especially never a GOOD [as in, one of "The good guys"] ugly woman character."

Diversity of men in culture is a good thing! I like how we can have idealized male forms along side all the other forms men take. But that's the problem, isn't it? Men have a multitude of forms. Women have... like, 3. Virgin, Mother, and Crone, to take from history.

I just wish there was a diversity of women, too?

DIVERSITY IS A GOOD THING, WE LIKE DIVERSITY, SO SAYING "But Descan, idealized men exist!" is like saying to a gay guy who's always being told he's going to hell all the time by Christians, "But Moslems ALSO think you're going to hell!"

Just... doesn't work.

[Loud Whispers]

I didn't say that men only are idealized.  I've said, over and over again, that there's a range of portrayals for men that simply doesn't exist for women'

[?]

and that it has a real-world effect on people's expectations, their feelings about themselves, and ultimately their actions.  It's a problem.

A problem they should face, not censor out of existence. That struggle is much like the struggle against temptations, do you remove yourself from them, or do you overcome them?

More realistic works still tend to idealize or denigrate women to a disproportionate extent, and it is bad for the female human beings who view them (For fucking example).

And no, I'm not fighting against Greek statuary.  I'm fighting against things like, say, the overwhelming use of photoshop on pictures of women to make them truly impossibly beautiful, while pretending to be real pictures.  I'm fighting against the utterly relentless stereotyping women receive.

Apologies on not explaining the Greek statuary part, I'm just about spent for now, so forgive the tired-posting.
Photoshop on models for magazines intended for a female audience are shit because they are passing off unattainable heights of beauty as reality.
Fictional media, is fictional. A fantasy.

[Vector]

Why shouldn't I get fantasies where I'm powerful?

Why shouldn't I get stories about my life as it influences me, not as some dude sees it?

[Rolan7]

Spoiler: Perceived injustice (click to show/hide)

Bottom left Texas one has me cracking up

Totally forgot to add, the point of adding this image was just to highlight how erroneous the belief that woman are the only sex idealized. Strong, broad and tall man with chiseled jaw and deep eyes? Sound familiar?

Video games and books are mediums.  Romance novels and hentai games both sexualize/idealize their characters, because they're primarily erotica.

Unreal 2 is supposed to be a FPS with a narrative of humanity's desperate fight against a vicious alien species.

The player:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/John_Dalton
A supporting character:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/Isaak
Another supporting character:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://liandri.beyondunreal.com/Aida

The male main character is physically idealized, but gets to wear idealized armor.
The male supporting character looks like an average human, and gets to wear realistic military armor.  This provides contrast to the PC.
The female supporting character has a boob window.  This provides... yeah.

So while you're right that male characters get idealized, it's handled very differently outside of erotica. 

I just don't like "& you also" arguments, they seem rather... Empty.

Isn't that what *you're* arguing?  That "Hey, men get fetishized too sometimes"?

Editted in links because some if the images are mysteriously not working.

[Neonivek]

The way I always put it

The male idealization tends to be in favor of their competence. They have the clothing and physique appropriate for their job.

The female idealization tends to be against their competence. They tend to have the clothing and physique unappropriate for the job.

That also doesn't mention all the times a female character will pose oddly, jiggle her breasts like they were made of a goo, or have the camera focus on what isn't important for the scene (unless her butt was somehow absolutely vital)

Actually... there was only one game EVER where the butt shot was actually important... and it was meant to be a joke.

[Max White]

Also, relevant:

Spoiler: Perceived injustice (click to show/hide)

Bottom left Texas one has me cracking up

You do understand these are basically written porn, right?
Are you saying that video games don't need diversity in characters because they amount to nothing but porn?

Apparently there are a lot of women who have a thing for some what ugly scarred guys. I never even knew! Maybe I should get hacked across the face leaving that scar over eye thing that Kratos has going.

[Rolan7]

The way I always put it

The male idealization tends to be in favor of their competence. They have the clothing and physique appropriate for their job.

The female idealization tends to be against their competence. They tend to have the clothing and physique unappropriate for the job.

Thanks, that's what I'm trying to say.

Actually... there was only one game EVER where the butt shot was actually important.

I can think of one game where a groin-grope was of life-or-death importance.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I love MGS3

[scriver]

The difference being that Asari was designed as a single-gender species from the beginning, the Krogan were not. Then Bioware got criticised for not showing any females of their female-male species in ME1, and thus came up with a stupid excuse for why you don't get to see any female Krogans even when you go to their home planet in ME2. And it still comes down to not wanting to bother implementing female Krogans. The "hidden female camps" narrative stems from their decision to not implement females, the lack of females does not stem from the narrative.

I'm still not really sure why they needed an excuse however, we do not see any female turians until some of the DLC for ME3 and they are supposedly a race that has a similar female to male ratio as humans. Why have an excuse for Krogans and not for Turians then? It makes no sense to make up a half assed excuse for one race and the leave the rest of them without an excuse, if they really cared that much about it they would have done it for all races that don't show females and not just a select few. You might be right but it just doesn't make sense to me that they would do it just for Krogans and leave all of the other races with the same problem but without an excuse for it.

They needed the excuse because we go to their home planet. We don't go to the Turians' home planet.

Then Bioware got criticised for not showing any females of their female-male species in ME1, and thus came up with a stupid excuse for why you don't get to see any female Krogans even when you go to their home planet in ME2

That excuse I was talking about? Yeah that was the first game. I didn't hear their excuse for the second game.

I wasn't aware of any excuse in the first game? The excuse for the second game, anyway, where we go to their home planet, is that all the females live in super secret camps and we aren't allowed to see them.

[Neonivek]

If you talk to your team make enough in the first mass effect and read all the info you get in the files you kind of learn everything you need to know about the Krogans.

Them being ultra-protective of their female members is something that can be discovered in the first game.

Them actually having "Super secret camps" is something that was invented for the second but follows the same logic.