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[Graknorke]

And this happens in the games industry. And it sucks.

I've never heard of this happening before. Can you give an example?

[Vector]

REMEMBER ME

That would be your canonical example.

[Max White]

DAMMIT VECTOR! I was going to do some witty pun about not being able to remember. I was just waiting for somebody to ask. Waiting!

But yea, Remember Me is known for the publisher going very public about it. There are meant to be more where the devs just rolled with it.

Also, link to some article.

[Graknorke]

Wikipedia says that the protagonist is female, and voiced by a female voice actress.

[Vector]

Yeah, keep reading.

[Max White]

Wikipedia says that the protagonist is female, and voiced by a female voice actress.

Yes. That is why the game was turned down by multiple publishers.
There are a multitude of publishers that refused a game based on the fact that there was a female protagonist in a relationship.

[Graknorke]

Wikipedia says that the protagonist is female, and voiced by a female voice actress.

Yes. That is why the game was turned down by multiple publishers.
There are a multitude of publishers that refused a game based on the fact that there was a female protagonist in a relationship.

That's pretty shitty.

[DJ]

And throwing out vague buzzwords like they're facts isn't proof of anything. And it's not my job to prove they're false, it's your job to prove them true.

Buzzwords like what? What statement are you even arguing against?

I already proven my statement was more then just buzz words and opened them up to criticisms. Male Oriented Television means the opposite of Strawberry Shortcake... And that Teenage mutant ninja turtles would be an example of that.

Nah, he's talking to me.  He's saying the Bechdel test is a vague buzzword and that it's my duty to link him directly to it if I mention its conclusion.  Either that or he honestly doesn't know what it is!  So here, gain a basic education:
http://bechdeltest.com/statistics/

And no, it's not conclusive proof of anything.  I'm not writing a thesis, I was participating in a discussion and now it's dawn.

Yeah, and that's totally irrelevant without the other half of data. And I can't find the actual list of the analyzed movies, which makes me suspicious of selection bias.
*edit* NVM the second part, I'm just blind apparently.

[Max White]

That's pretty shitty.

Also shitty would be that there is no way this is the first time this has ever happened.
A lot of developers are trying hard to be different in some way to grab attention from both audience and publishers. They crave any niche they can find, and good female roles are a fun way to make use of that writing degree. You just know that at some point in time, when a dev was told "We will pay off your student loans if you make the girl into a guy" the response was "And is there anything else you needed?"

[AlleeCat]

How can publishers think that female main characters won't sell? Tomb Raider '13 sold well. Portal and Portal 2 sold well. And these are just the recent titles with female leads. Hell, everybody knows Samus Aran is a chick, and yet, Metroid games still manage to sell. (Although I think we should just forget Other M ever existed. It's best for everyone.)

[Soadreqm]

Not every game needs to teach gender equality, or be empowering to females.  But is our entertainment culture allowing such games to succeed beyond a few remarkable examples?  Are we selecting heavily for male empowerment fantasies, and is that a problem?  I think those are the questions she's trying to start discussion on.

WHO is selecting for male empowerment fantasies, though? Games with female protagonists are a distinct minority, but the ones that do exist seem to be doing pretty well. Mirror's Edge didn't sell quite as many copies as EA wanted, but it sold okay, and a lot of critics liked it. Portal was almost universally liked. And everyone knows the Metroid series. Making your protagonist female clearly doesn't doom a game. It just doesn't happen very often for some reason. :/

really hard to find a good female-lead stealth game

You might want to try Mirror's Edge, actually. It's definitely not a stealth game, but it does focus on getting to places you're not supposed to be and avoiding combat.

[Max White]

How can publishers think that female main characters won't sell? Tomb Raider '13 sold well. Portal and Portal 2 sold well. And these are just the recent titles with female leads. Hell, everybody knows Samus Aran is a chick, and yet, Metroid games still manage to sell. (Although I think we should just forget Other M ever existed. It's best for everyone.)

Specifically, they weren't opposed to a female character, they were opposed to a female character that was in an active relationship. You can have a female protagonist as long as she has sex appeal, and being in a relationship isn't 'sexy'.
Because her boyfriend has a role in the story line, it was suggested that they swap genders rather than just remove the guy. Apparently it is ok when a girl is dating the protagonist because self reflection fantasies.

[AlleeCat]

Not every game needs to teach gender equality, or be empowering to females.  But is our entertainment culture allowing such games to succeed beyond a few remarkable examples?  Are we selecting heavily for male empowerment fantasies, and is that a problem?  I think those are the questions she's trying to start discussion on.

WHO is selecting for male empowerment fantasies, though? Games with female protagonists are a distinct minority, but the ones that do exist seem to be doing pretty well. Mirror's Edge didn't sell quite as many copies as EA wanted, but it sold okay, and a lot of critics liked it. Portal was almost universally liked. And everyone knows the Metroid series. Making your protagonist female clearly doesn't doom a game. It just doesn't happen very often for some reason. :/

really hard to find a good female-lead stealth game

You might want to try Mirror's Edge, actually. It's definitely not a stealth game, but it does focus on getting to places you're not supposed to be and avoiding combat.

I completely forgot about Mirror's Edge! Another female PC who isn't sexually exploited for sales.

and being in a relationship isn't 'sexy'.

I could show you a lot of guys who can dispute that...

[Max White]

Well apart from Faith (Mirrors edge) and Chell (Portal) who else do we really have? Lara Croft is a little bit of a joke, and when I say a little bit of a joke I mean huuuge tracks of joke. Samus has been exploited for her sexuality from game one.

Actually Jade from Beyond Good & Evil is pretty good!

I could show you a lot of guys who can dispute that...

A lot of guys, but how many games?
We aren't operating in real life logic here, we are working within the minds of games publishers. People scientifically proven to have the worst judgement in the universe.

[smirk]

Part of the problem is developers not wanting to take any risks whatsoever, yes? Because making a game is a huge investment, so they only want to go with what's been proven to sell. They look at all the games featuring super-macho protagonists saving the girl or the world or what-have-you (hyperbole!), and decide to stick with that formula because "hey, it's worked so well before!" The upper tiers of the industry have ossified. Can you imagine a pitch for Super Mario Bros in this day and age? "Lessee... alright, first, he can't be a plumber. I like the blue-collar schtick, but let's say mechanic instead. Engines and shit! Which also means he needs a machine gun. Or a chainsaw. Or, hey, both! Also, he can't be fighting mushrooms and turtles and things; we can't do the drug angle, that'll sink our ratings for sure. Hey! He fights zombies now. ...Keep the moustache."

That's why I'm glad people like Anita are around, even if I disagree with her methodology. Ain't nothin' gonna change if someone doesn't speak up. And the more people that do, the quicker companies will realize they can expand into these areas. It's just gonna take a while because they are by nature reactionary rather than proactive.