Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LordBucket]

Stating that things are a certain way because you personally think they are is not a very convincing argument.

No, but giving a clear list like I did should be much more so. This is my sample group. My sample group does not support the claims that some of you are making. I'm not going out of my way to choose "games with strong women" but there's no particular shortage of them in the games that I happen to play. Look at the above list. That's what's on my computer right now. It's not a long list...like Vector I've played a lot of games, the sbove is just what's on my computer right now...but I'm pretty confidant that if you were to take a random snapshot any other day, the gender dynamics and ratios wouldn't be massively different.

looking through my steam library I see 38 games, of which you play solely as a female in 2 and exclusively as a male in 17. Of the 10 in which you can play as both female and male, only 3 of them treat females as equivalent to males, and don't focus on the male character as the 'right' way to play.

the vast majority of women in the games I play who aren't protagonists are also made to be useless and without agency.

...ok. So then I guess my question is...why do you have a preference for games with those trends if they bother you?

There's no shortage of games with gender equality and strong women. It's seems silly to me for you to demonstrate a preference for games with gender inequalities and then complain that the industry is being unfair.

You made those choices. If you're not happy with the choice, why don't you just play different games?

[Neonivek]

Diablo 1 - Sexual dimorphism does exist. 2/3 of the available classes are male-only, with the third being female-only. Notable, the "best" class is male-only. Some unequal sexualization does exist in the game. For example, succubi have exposed breasts.

Let me retranslate. The game has only three characters available, two male and one female. Each class has its own specialization with the female being ranged (The Best class wasn't designed that way it came through the metagame.). Unequal sexualisation exists in the form of enemy characters with exposed breasts (and does the Ranger have Breast Plate? I forget)

You aren't Anita... You can give honest depictions of the game.

[Vector]

...ok. So then I guess my question is...why do you have a preference for games with those trends if they bother you?

I know this is addressed to Cheeetar, but I'll reply anyway: because I like particular genres of game.

Much like I don't like romance novels so I don't get many non-male-gazey female protagonists, I also have my preferences for gametype.

[smirk]

looking through my steam library I see 38 games, of which you play solely as a female in 2 and exclusively as a male in 17. Of the 10 in which you can play as both female and male, only 3 of them treat females as equivalent to males, and don't focus on the male character as the 'right' way to play.

the vast majority of women in the games I play who aren't protagonists are also made to be useless and without agency.

...ok. So then I guess my question is...why do you have a preference for games with those trends if they bother you?

There's no shortage of games with gender equality and strong women. It's seems silly to me for you to demonstrate a preference for games with gender inequalities and then complain that the industry is being unfair.

You made those choices. If you're not happy with the choice, why don't you just play different games?

Well, it's also about game types, innit? If I'm a fan of games built around role-playing, Role-Playing Games if you will, then I'll most likely see better-developed characters of all types. However, if I have a preference for first-person shooters or hack-n-slash, then I can be pretty confident that story has taken a backseat and will be filled with (potentially sexist) cliches. Which is a problem. There is always a choice to just shut the game off, of course, or force myself to play another genre that I don't really want to play, but ideally I would have a non-sexist game choice in my genre of choice.

That's why stories about female gamers trying to get into the fighting game community tend to come up whenever sexism in gaming is mentioned. Fighting games tend to lean more sexist (ludicrous costumes, ridiculous poses, etc) than other genres.

fakeedit: ninja'd by Vector

[Vector]

Yeah, that's true.  I also really like fighting games.  Playing them, I mean.  I would play them a lot more if I weren't pretty much restricted to Street Fighter 2, Soul Calibur 2, and Rival Schools.

(I should probably look into Tekken, but it's been a long time since I've had a gaming partner)

[Neonivek]

Here is kind of the thing Smirk.

Often times things that try to break stereotypes for the sake of breaking stereotypes... aren't very good.

NO ONE wants to see the videogame where a woman goes "Now I will stand up and prove that women are just as good as men" they want to play the videogame with a strong female character.

[LordBucket]

...ok. So then I guess my question is...why do you have a preference for games with those trends if they bother you?

I know this is addressed to Cheeetar, but I'll reply anyway: because I like particular genres of game.

Much like I don't like romance novels so I don't get many non-male-gazey female protagonists, I also have my preferences for gametype.

Ok. Then, I guess I would ask that you revise your position to be that you're unhappy with a very specific sub genre rather than "the gaming industry." Because gender equality is completely normal in many genres. Just not the ones you want to play.

You mention romance novels. I find this curious, because I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of romance novels are written specifically for women. I wonder if the problem you're having is that you have a preference for material that is intended to not cater to you, and a dislike of material that is intended to cater to you.

For example, while I lack hard figures, I would venture a guess that probably the console game market has a lot more scantily clad, stupid helpless women than the computer game market. I would venture a guess that "you have no choice what protagonist you play, we wrote only one story" games probably have a lot more npcs characterized solely by the fact of having big boobs than games where you can freely customize your character.

Yes, surely trends do exist. But please understand that even the "I'm an insecure 12 year old boy who wants to be reassured about my masculinity and see lots of sexy babes" demographic is a perfectly valid demographic for people to make games for. There are plenty of games being made for different demographics. If you have a preference for material that is primarily intended for demographics that include material you dislike...all I can say is that must be inconvenient.

To give you an analogy, let's say that I were to assert that I really enjoy shopping. That's a non-stereotypical activity for men to enjoy. But, nevertheless, there would be no shortage of places for me to go shopping. Now, let's say that I were to decide that I really liked shopping, but I only wanted to buy lingerie. Ok, well...at that point, yes...clearly the industry exhibits a very strong gender preference. Most lingerie is for women. Even so...I could, if I really wanted to, go and buy women's lingerie to "enjoy shopping." But now, imagine if I started complaining that all the lingerie was for women and I really wanted to buy lingerie for men and there wasn't a lot of selection.

That's kind of the position you're in. And again...at some point, all I can really say is yeah...must be inconvenient to have such a specific set of preferences for material that isn't really intended for you.

gazey female

We covered this a couple dozen pages ago in the thread. I think this is a slightly different issue. Even games that are specifically intended for women will generally have "gazey" females. Look at any dress-up game. The idea of being beautiful is supposed to appeal to a female audience just like being a strong, hunky dude is supposed to appeal to the male audience. I assert that most women probably would prefer to play games where they get to be pretty. If that bothers you, then yeah...it's possible you might have a difficult time finding content that appeals to you.

Yes, there are games where you can create fat and ugly avatars, but there aren't many, and I think that's simply because it's not something many people want. This isn't a gender issue.

[smirk]

Often times things that try to break stereotypes for the sake of breaking stereotypes... aren't very good.

NO ONE wants to see the videogame where a woman goes "Now I will stand up and prove that women are just as good as men" they want to play the videogame with a strong female character.

Indeed, full agreement there. I'm... not sure if I implied the opposite in my previous post; didn't mean to.

[Flying Dice]

That's kind of the position you're in. And again...at some point, all I can really say is yeah...must be inconvenient to have such a specific set of preferences for material that isn't really intended for you.

"Don't complain about gender bias in these games, they weren't meant for you."

This is an absurd premise. You're assuming both that the personal tastes of gamers, individually or collectively, do and should perfectly parallel the beliefs of developers and publishers regarding the same. Target demographics are at best general estimates of who will like a given product, and they've been woefully wrong time and again. You are also, incidentally, implying that sexism is fine as long as it isn't observed by anyone belonging to the gender being demeaned. The argument you're making hints at the idea of "natural" or in-born gender roles (in this context, in terms of who is supposed to be entertained by a given genre of game), as well, which I believe I recall seeing you espouse in the past.

[Cheeetar]

...ok. So then I guess my question is...why do you have a preference for games with those trends if they bother you?

There's no shortage of games with gender equality and strong women. It's seems silly to me for you to demonstrate a preference for games with gender inequalities and then complain that the industry is being unfair.

You made those choices. If you're not happy with the choice, why don't you just play different games?

Unfortunately, the gender of the characters is not the only differentiation between these games and others. There's also gameplay! This is not only a surprisingly important factor in the games I play, but the major factor in whether or not I wish to play a game. I can be disappointed in the portrayal of characters of different genders in a game while also liking the gameplay of it.

[Vector]

There's a big difference between "attractive" and "stripper."

So... you're trying to explain that because I don't like romance novels and "chick flick" movies about women trying to land a man, I don't get to watch movies or read books with female main characters?  Okay then.

[LordBucket]

You're assuming both that the personal tastes of gamers, individually or collectively, do and
should perfectly parallel the beliefs of developers and publishers regarding the same

No, I'm recognizing the realities of consumer demand, and that companies will make products that they believe will sell.

You are also, incidentally, implying that sexism is fine as long as it isn't observed by anyone belonging to the gender being demeaned.

...that's slightly sideways to my actual position. Allow me to clarify:

There are people who do enjoy and specifically want material that could be considered sexist, and that ok. It's reasonable to give them what they want. Whether people belonging to the gender being "demeaned" view it (or interpret as demeaning, for that matter) is besides the point.

For example, some people want content with lots of naked women with big boobs. And that's ok. There's nothing wrong with giving it to them. If a woman sees content containing naked women with big boobs, and is angry about it, when that content is intended for somebody who wants it...that is, in my opinion, not reasonable. It would be just as unreasonable, for example, for a guy to walk into chip n' dales and see a bunch of muscular guys dancing in speedos and get angry that he saw it and then complain that it was "demeaning" to men, or that it "objectified" them. It wasn't intended for him, and the people who it was intended for were probably happy with it.

[Rolan7]

looking through my steam library I see 38 games, of which you play solely as a female in 2 and exclusively as a male in 17. Of the 10 in which you can play as both female and male, only 3 of them treat females as equivalent to males, and don't focus on the male character as the 'right' way to play.

the vast majority of women in the games I play who aren't protagonists are also made to be useless and without agency.

...ok. So then I guess my question is...why do you have a preference for games with those trends if they bother you?

There's no shortage of games with gender equality and strong women. It's seems silly to me for you to demonstrate a preference for games with gender inequalities and then complain that the industry is being unfair.

You made those choices. If you're not happy with the choice, why don't you just play different games?

Okay first off, it's unfortunate that a certain a certain subset of games is so heavily gender-imbalanced.  It reinforces limiting gender stereotypes.
Secondly... what types of games are we even talking about?

I didn't uninstall any games for my list, either.  I even left Millenium, which I don't even play or like.

See, you said that there was some list of games with female main characters that you thought I'd like.

Diablo is notorious for having female characters fall down in a way that indicates that they've been raped.  No thanks.

Of the above list, the things I think I'd be most likely to enjoy would be Morrowind, Neverwinter Nights, Clannad, and Might and Magic.  Two of those are sequels/"followers" to games on my list (sequels I didn't enjoy, I might add; and I played as a dude in Baldur's Gate because guys get, like, four romances and girls get one).  One of those has a male-only MC (I do like dating games, actually).  The other one... well, I'm planning on getting Skyrim eventually, but that still isn't the kind of RPG I really like.

I want squad RPGs where the gals aren't mostly thieves and spellcasters, single-MC action games where she's female and non-sexualized, and stealth games.  With characterization.  I like being told a story, you see.  These are all very hard to come by.

LordBucket, are you trying to say that first person RPGs and RPG-RTSes are innately male-dominated games?  That women have no right to complain about them because OF COURSE they're sexist?  Because FPSes are, I think obviously, worse.

(Neonivek continues to be a voice of reason in this thread, honestly.  I actually DO think sexism against men is an issue.  The male-dominated games demean us as much as they exclude women.)

Edit: It's still perfectly fine to have a lot of sexist games.  I'd say the tipping point is when *most* are disturbingly sexist.  (And again, the exact point a game becomes "sexist" differs from person to person.)

[Max White]

Age of Wushu
Eve Online
Dwarf Fortress
Neverwinter Nights
Diablo 1
Clannad
Patapony
Elona
Morrowind
Might and Magic IV and V

Well we could attempt to find games where gender is treated equally (And subtly notice how the vast majority of these games are "Select gender" type games)

There isn't actually a huge problem within the games industry of women being given worse stats then men in games where you can select your gender. When it does happen, it is often due to meta game elements. Ok, so there is the problem of "Male = Fighter, Female = Mage" and so forth, but there are plenty of games where you can choose your female character and have the same stats as a male character.

In games with a slightly more linear story, however, where you are forced to play as a specific character rather than making your own, we are hoping Huston is on the line, because we have a fucking problem.

[Solifuge]

Here's what's installed on my computer right now. I didn't "cheat" by uninstalling anything before making the list.

LordBucket, your examples are just talking about how women look, their representation via game mechanics, and their physical strength, rather than how women factor into the plot, how they behave, whether they act or are acted on, and so on. I can't speak on all these games, but I have to disagree with your opinions on most of the ones I have played:

Eve Online - No sexual dimorphism at all. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Many strong women exist. It is possible to create a custom character avatar that is "sexualized" but is is equally possible with both genders.

Dwarf Fortress - The only sexual dimorphism is that only women can give birth, and it's the mother who carries the child after birth. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Many strong women exist. No sexualization exists.

EVE is an MMO Economics Simulator set in space, with no substantial plot or characters. Sex-based bias isn't relevant to the plot because plot never really enters the picture; it's all about the interaction between actual human players. Similar goes for DF, in that it's a Civilization Simulator, and lacks a story beyond the one resulting from Random Number Generation. Authorial bias and representation of sex as pertaining to plot doesn't enter the picture.

Neverwinter Nights - No sexual dimorphorism at all. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Many strong women exist. Some unequal sexualization does exist. For example, only women work in the brothels. But notably, the npc in charge and ordering around the men for most of the game is female.

Aribeth is an flimsy failure of a Paladin, who at one moment is a bastion of justice and order, and the next is willing to betray her god, her beliefs, and everything she's ever stood for, because she got emotional over what Neverwinter did to her man. And she wears a damned platemail bra for crying out loud. Sure she's a tragic female character, which would be cool were she not tragic because of her utter weakness, lack of moral fortitude, and general dependance on her man. As someone who's supposed to be a devout priest and authority figure, I couldn't reconcile her character, or take her seriously.

Spoiler: And really, Aribeth the Paladin, Sharwyn the Bard, the better part of the Female PC Portraits... it's egregious cheesecake all around: (click to show/hide)

Diablo 1 - Sexual dimorphism does exist. 2/3 of the available classes are male-only, with the third being female-only. Notable, the "best" class is male-only. Some unequal sexualization does exist in the game. For example, succubi have exposed breasts.

I don't think Blizzard do a very good job of representing female characters as anything but male-gaze sex objects, or male characters as anything but musclebound power fantasies. I've never played the Diablo 1 storyline, so I don't know how relevant non PC ladies are to the plot, but I don't remember seeing much female involvement in it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Morrowind - No sexual dimorphism at all. Men and women are exactly equivalent in ability. Many strong women exist, including two goddesses, one of whom is the narrator, and the other of whom is portrayed as clearly more powerful than the primary male god.

This is inaccurate; your selection of gender alters your physical and mental stats. However, this is a rare example of a story-heavy game that does a great job of representing male and female characters as socially equal, and equally plot-important. And though there are physically powerful female characters too, more importantly there are female characters who are important, who possess agency, make decisions, and affect events by their own volition, etc. Even though some of the most relevant examples are actually genderless extradimensional entities that only appear as ladies for convenience sake.