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[Max White]

You do realize that in Super Princess Peach, her special power is her Super-PMS? She literally invokes violent magical mood-swings to kill enemies and solve puzzles. Yes the idea is ridiculous, and could be funny if not for the fact that this is how they choose to portray the only female hero of the Mario series. Really now.

What?
No I was referring to Super Mario 2. Have you even watched her video, she doesn't mention Super Princess Peach.

I actually didn't know it was a thing personally. 

[Glowcat]

But as she mentioned, Super Mario 2 having Peach as a heroine was almost accidental given that it was a quick rewrite of an existing Japanese game. I do remember playing the shit out of her though. That gliding ability was useful.

[Max White]

But as she mentioned, Super Mario 2 having Peach as a heroine was almost accidental given that it was a quick rewrite of an existing Japanese game. I do remember playing the shit out of her though. That gliding ability was useful.

BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!
When Peach is actually on similar footing with Mario, it is all 'Well that was almost an accident, doesn't count!' but when a games female protagonist is removed for similar reasons it counts.

If a game is sexist or not for its content, then it doesn't matter why Peach got in, what matters is that she got in.

[Neonivek]

You do realize that in Super Princess Peach, her special power is her Super-PMS? She literally invokes violent magical mood-swings to kill enemies and solve puzzles. Yes the idea is ridiculous, and could be funny if not for the fact that this is how they choose to portray the only female hero of the Mario series. Really now

Yeah it is pretty bad.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, I just don't get how that makes for a weak point

Don't get me wrong she doesn't have NO point. It is just that whenever she approaches these two things, she isn't as accurate as I think she should be.

"MoM." Samus put in a wet skintight catsuit

To be truthful contextually while that makes sense (afterall it is her underarmor) her previous versions (Bikini) were much worse.

Also unlike most people I don't see what is so sexy about a Catsuit.

Also that is Other M... it is MUCH worse then that. The sexism mainly has to do with how the story writer thought post traumatic stress disorder would affect a woman and the fact that Samus is helpless within her own story.

If Anita doesn't analyse Other M she lost out because it is like everything she needs to talk about in a single package.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, I just don't get how that makes for a weak point. I mean, I played Wind Waker too, and I really liked Tetra. And when I played it, though I didn't have words for disempowerment at the time, but I remember being disappointed when she stopped being a Badass Pirate Captain, and got turned into a princess, and was effectively booted from the heroic quest.

This happens so often in anime I hate it, I hate it so much (It is why I often say "Anime hates women").

Mind you there is no narrative issue there. She shouldn't have suddenly have become a damsel UNLESS it was somehow important that she do so... but it wasn't. As well why would Zelda just give in like that? She is the keeper of the Triforce of Wisdom she ALWAYS knows what to do. That is why she sacrifices herself in most of the games.

It wouldn't fall where I think she is weak. Since that is a perfect example of a competent proactive character suddenly becoming incompetent because "Eww she is a woman and we can't have that"

It is why while people love "How to Train your dragon" I dislike it because Asterid's plotline gets completely dropped and completely consumed by the main character. She never actually fulfills her character arc in order to make our main character more important. I really feel sorry for her as a character.

Which is terrible.

You do realize that in Super Princess Peach, her special power is her Super-PMS? She literally invokes violent magical mood-swings to kill enemies and solve puzzles. Yes the idea is ridiculous, and could be funny if not for the fact that this is how they choose to portray the only female hero of the Mario series. Really now.

What?
No I was referring to Super Mario 2. Have you even watched her video, she doesn't mention Super Princess Peach.

I actually didn't know it was a thing personally. 

She does mention Super Princess peach but says she will get back to it...

Though honestly Other M is much worse. At least in Super Princess Peach the magic was affecting everyone and it was her control over her own emotions that allowed her to become the savior so it was a case of her becoming MORE of a hero. Other M is just a disaster and manages to break a otherwise competent character for no good reason.

I mean don't get me wrong... the idea of Samus getting post traumatic stress disorder and needs to deal with her imminant mental collapse while saving people she cares about is a perfectly decent storyline. The issue is both that they don't show her mental state but also that they make a lot of VERY terrible assumptions on how a woman would show this.

---

I guess where it all comes down too is I have little issue with useless deadweight characters being useless and a deadweight because they are useless and a deadweight.

what I HATE when it comes to women are them being thrown under the bus for the male lead.

Which could be simply because they are trying to appeal to new standards with depicting women but still falling back on these archtypes. They want their "strong female character" but they also want their damsel and instead of setting up the situation they force it instead.

[Solifuge]

I understand they were trying to flesh out the character, and give her a more complex personality. It's just... I mean, it just doesn't fit her at all. It just strikes me as this really ham-handed attempt to make her more "Womanly".

This whole "Taming Of The Shrew" thing, disempowering female characters (especially those occupying "traditionally male" roles like warriors or rogues or whatever) through forced feminization seems to be an obsession in Japanese Culture, which borders on the fetishistic. It pisses me off, and grosses me out, all at the same time.

[Neonivek]

Honestly Solifuge the absolute most disgusting example I seen was in Marchen Awakens romance with Princess Snow

She was basically the female lead having a similar personality and strong aspiration like the hero as well as a background that puts her in the center of attention.

She makes a huge speach about how she is going to fight and wins! Then immediately afterwords everyone is talking about how "she is just a little girl"... and no it isn't her age she isn't even the youngest member of the team.

Mind you Solifuge I have seen "Feminizing women" done right as well, but not most of the time.

[Glowcat]

But as she mentioned, Super Mario 2 having Peach as a heroine was almost accidental given that it was a quick rewrite of an existing Japanese game. I do remember playing the shit out of her though. That gliding ability was useful.

BUT THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!
When Peach is actually on similar footing with Mario, it is all 'Well that was almost an accident, doesn't count!' but when a games female protagonist is removed for similar reasons it counts.

If a game is sexist or not for its content, then it doesn't matter why Peach got in, what matters is that she got in.

I don't see how you're comparing the two. The equivalent would be Peach taking over a Mario game as the star of the game whereas Mario is.. I dunno, stuck in a speedo playing an entirely passive role as he waits for Peach to save him. But no, not even then would it be the same, because the surrounding culture doesn't make Peach turning Mario into a porn actor a stereotype that is repeated constantly. It doesn't reinforce the image of a helpless sexualized male character who ends up in that role except in rare circumstances. Those rare circumstances having nothing to do with exploring his character outside of the limited box given to him but rather because they needed to fill out avatars for a game with more options than there are heroic female characters in the series.

It's not the same, like, at all.

[alexandertnt]

(LET ME POST. Seriously, its like my 6th attempt. Damn particularly-active thread)

So first you remove the idea that "Sexy women is terrible", then you remove "Making women sexy is terrible", THEN you remove "adding desirable features to this character is wrong" then you look at fanservice in games and you start to really understand what the issue is. Fanservice is often against the female character or to make offensive female characters or prolonging offensive ideas of sexyness.

Nobody was specifically claiming things like "Sexy women is terrible". But yes, the prevalence and ubiquity of the sexy women for the purpose of fan service is one of the issues.



I think people need to keep in mind that much complaints against the general game industry is against the general game industry. That whilst you can justify prominent examples to varying degrees, the fact that there are so many examples in the general gaming culture is generally viewed as the problem. (Disclaimer: This is how I understand it anyway, I don’t want to sound assertive)

[Neonivek]

That whilst you can justify prominent examples to varying degrees, the fact that there are so many examples in the general gaming culture is generally viewed as the problem.

Well it is sort of the difference to me between Nina from Tekken and Sophitia from Soul Calibur.

Nina in Tekken is a sexy spy who basically acts really ontowards.

While Sophitia is a devoted mother who is willing to risk everything for her children, going to hell and back to save them.

Nina is relatively modest and is the only female with that characterisation in a game full of female characters (at least in my mind) yet Sophitia has had her breast size grow continuously every game and in 4 they actually made her clothing partially see through (with the ability to break her down to her bikini).

Actually I could use just about ANY woman from Soul Calibur (and Tekken isn't all innocent... they are just not as overt. Even Christie at least looks appropriate in her fanservice) and it shows just how sick fanservice in videogames is. (sick as in bad)

[Max White]

Actually you know what game I played recently that was actually a pretty good example of how you can have a good female character? Ico.
The female is a pretty much helpless, physically feeble helpless girl who is constantly getting saved by the male protagonist, but hear me out. While she needs him, he also needs her. While she is trapped in a castle unable to save herself, so is he. Neither are independent from the other. Further still, the female character has development. Very early in the game she isn't good for much else than standing on things as a dead weight, yet as the game advances she takes more and more of an active role in their escape.
Is it sexist that the female character starts off so useless? Well no because it fits in with her character, she has most likely never set foot
outside her cage at the start of the game, but she is given a chance to grow and develop and learn and be more than a dead weight.
You don't need the 'strong, independent, ass kicking' type of female character to not be sexist. You are certainly allowed to have these characters, but you don't need to reduce all females to a 'Tetra or sexist' mentality. The female is allowed to be dependent, just as much as the male is. The important part is that they are treated like a character with depth instead of an object of desire.

Although there is nothing against the ass kicking female, but I think the idea that all females in games must be what we currently present male characters as is just as sexist as the idea that all females must be a delicate ornamental prize.

[Neonivek]

Yeah it is all about balance and the understanding that women, just like men, can have all roles.

The issue with Tetra was more that she was a active character made inactive for the sake of the main character (something that would be terrible no matter who it happened to)

Frankly I kinda prefer the "seemingly inactive" Zelda over Tetra. Zelda always came off to me as a selfless character who only gets captured because she forsaw it as the best possible outcome for her people but still manipulates things behind the scenes to ensure it comes to pass.

I can't think of any other character who consistantly has that characterisation, who "could" fight back but knows it would only be at the expense of others and where it isn't potrayed as a flaw.

As for Peach I kinda prefer her to be more active. She is always awsome whenever she is playable.

[chaoticag]

Actually you know what game I played recently that was actually a pretty good example of how you can have a good female character? Ico.
The female is a pretty much helpless, physically feeble helpless girl who is constantly getting saved by the male protagonist, but hear me out. While she needs him, he also needs her. While she is trapped in a castle unable to save herself, so is he. Neither are independent from the other. Further still, the female character has development. Very early in the game she isn't good for much else than standing on things as a dead weight, yet as the game advances she takes more and more of an active role in their escape.
Is it sexist that the female character starts off so useless? Well no because it fits in with her character, she has most likely never set foot
outside her cage at the start of the game, but she is given a chance to grow and develop and learn and be more than a dead weight.
You don't need the 'strong, independent, ass kicking' type of female character to not be sexist. You are certainly allowed to have these characters, but you don't need to reduce all females to a 'Tetra or sexist' mentality. The female is allowed to be dependent, just as much as the male is. The important part is that they are treated like a character with depth instead of an object of desire.

Although there is nothing against the ass kicking female, but I think the idea that all females in games must be what we currently present male characters as is just as sexist as the idea that all females must be a delicate ornamental prize.

Well, in Ico's case, both characters are co-dependent on one another, but the issue with the damsel in distress is that it turns what should be a character into an object by removing them from the narrative except for the end, where she is saved, and the character is for the most part, female. The issue is the combination of the above does make this a pretty sexist way to deal with things naratively; not sexist in the sense that it's women hating, (that's misogyny) but it's sexist in that it denies female characters the chance to actually grown into fully fleshed characters.

[Max White]

Well, all things in consideration.
Yea, the DiD trope is both over used and poorly used in most cases where it is. You can have a good damsel in distress story and not be sexist, but it requires good story telling, and that requires effort.

Still, in some cases, you need to look at things relatively speaking.
Is Peach nothing more than a thing to be saved? Perhaps, especially in the earlier games.
Is Mario anything more than a thing to save the princess? Not... really.
Is Bowser anything more than a villain with zero depth other than being a jerk? Not at all.
Does Toad amount to anything more than a letter saying 'Wrong castle douchebag'? Nope.

Nobody in Super Mario has character depth. The closest you are going to get is Super Paper Mario, where Peach is a more active character than Mario.

[Solifuge]

Although there is nothing against the ass kicking female, but I think the idea that all females in games must be what we currently present male characters as is just as sexist as the idea that all females must be a delicate ornamental prize.

Max, I completely agree that women don't have to be masculine to be strong characters at all. However, I don't generally care for delicate or naive characters, and have a pretty serious soft spot for hardasses, braggarts, and scoundrels of all stripes. When a character who falls into that category undergoes an abrupt character change, robbing them of the qualities I liked in them, and in ways that don't reconcile with their character at all, it kinda pisses me off. And when this is done to a female character in a crude attempt to reign them into a "more traditional role for their gender", that pisses me off even more.

Yeah it is all about balance and the understanding that women, just like men, can have all roles.

The general rule I like to use, when writing characters, is to not assign a gender/sex until after I know the gist of their personality, and the basic direction their story will go.

I know that sex and gender play a much bigger role in the creation of someone's personality in the real world... if nothing else, it influences how the outside world treats us, which in turn shapes how we act and see ourselves. Still, I like to think about a world where gender isn't such a big deal, and people can just be people, instead of ascribing themselves to a code of conduct based on what organs they were born with.

I think it helps to portray that sort of world in our fiction. That way, we can have something to move toward.

Spoiler: Tangentially Related Quote (click to show/hide)

'All right,' said Susan. 'I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."
"REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE"
'Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little- "
"YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES"
'So we can believe the big ones?"
"YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING"
'They're not the same at all!"
"YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET-- "
Death waved a hand. "AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME... SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED"
'Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point---"
"MY POINT EXACTLY"

[DJ]

It's not like male characters in video games are particularly well-written either. I get that being portrayed as a sex object is insulting, but being portrayed as a meathead psychopath with a Messiah complex isn't exactly flattering either.