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[Toaster]

Ranger:

Gotta go with toaster on this one, If he were town doing that could make sense, especially if he thinks hes gonna get lynched on that day. He uses it, and possibly takes a scum down overnight. Alternatively, if he were scum he could use this on a towny before his lynch to still kill someone during the day. More on this later, need to read

I just threw it out as a possibility, not something I seriously believed.


WetSheep:

Simply from NQT's claim he seems to be town. If he was scum and he had the ability, why wouldn't he just fire it off without announcing it? If he was scum without the ability, why would he claim he had it? PPE: There's also Ranger's point, which is a good one.

So he could say "If I was scum why would I do this?"




Still digging.

[webadict]

No update tonight, so just assume you sat around twiddling your thumbs. I'll get one up tomorrow morning.

[Griffionday]

No update tonight, so just assume you sat around twiddling your thumbs. I'll get one up tomorrow morning.

Remarkably close to the truth.

[Toaster]

Urist I:

Toaster:

Urist I:  Even if you hate RVS, doesn't not participating mean a glut of posts you're not really invested in when it comes time to leave RVS? 

I don't really understand what you mean here.

I mean if you're not participating, you're not invested in them.  If you're not invested, it's hard to get a read on them.  Do you agree?


Also, you appear to be sitting on a Ranger vote in lieu of scumhunting.


Hapah:

PFP

Tir: Seems like you're implying that you know whether it would or would not be justified this time around.

Why couldn't this have been a vote?


Ford:  I asked you what the scummiest thing you've seen so far was.  You respond with this.  Not pictured: an actual answer to the question.

Reading over your posts, you've been softballing and making nice with people all day.  I think you're buddying Zrk2 and softballing the crap out of NQT.  Ranger... your interaction with him is weak and noncomittal.

Let's review:  You are soft on Zrk2 in these posts:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4157741#msg4157741
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4159945#msg4159945
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4160414#msg4160414
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4160886#msg4160886
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4162296#msg4162296

And NQT in these posts:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4157850#msg4157850
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4159945#msg4159945
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4160414#msg4160414 *
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4160886#msg4160886
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4165344#msg4165344

Your attack on Ranger is similarly soft and plushy.

*Yes, you vote him here.  But it's practically as a formal reminder to check his vote, as evidenced by your quick unvote in the next linked post.


Let me re-ask my question.  Who is scum and why?  See if you can answer without waffling.  I bet you can't.


Griff:

I have a pretty much true neutral read on DS otherwise; he's been less active than I like, but I feel has dealt with the interactions as he's been called to.  Now then: Ranger and DS can't both be scum, or else I presume Ranger would have been taken aside in chat and given more advice on how to play well and probably ignored in game.  Thus if DS is scum he's been helping the town by improving one of our weaker players (not to say the Ranger is confirmed town, just that he is in this scenario).  Now I'm not saying this is impossible or even unlikely, however it is slightly less likely that DS is town and trying to make himself useful.

I wouldn't rely on this.  In all the time I've spent on this game, I can't recall a single instance of catching someone out over coaching.



Still digging, but I've struck something interesting already.

[Griffionday]

Griff:

I have a pretty much true neutral read on DS otherwise; he's been less active than I like, but I feel has dealt with the interactions as he's been called to.  Now then: Ranger and DS can't both be scum, or else I presume Ranger would have been taken aside in chat and given more advice on how to play well and probably ignored in game.  Thus if DS is scum he's been helping the town by improving one of our weaker players (not to say the Ranger is confirmed town, just that he is in this scenario).  Now I'm not saying this is impossible or even unlikely, however it is slightly less likely that DS is town and trying to make himself useful.

I wouldn't rely on this.  In all the time I've spent on this game, I can't recall a single instance of catching someone out over coaching.

I know.

[Tiruin]

Zrk

I did not make the case that there should be no scumhunting D1, I said that policy lynches or acceptable. Obviously if someone seems very scummy then we should lynch them. But baring overtly obvious scum then a policy lynch of a lurker/terrible scumhunter is not a terrible alternative.

Lynching a lurker gives next to no information, though, right? People with meaningful interactions give a lot more information.

It doesn't, but letting a lurker live will generate even less because they won't do anything the next day either. I believe that in the long run lynching lurker will provide more information because the lurker wouldn't be doing anything the next day either.

Ugh. You're being obstinate about the lurker won't do anything during the next day. What makes you so sure about that?! Faulty logic.

If lynching a lurker gives next to no information, letting a lurker live generates no information. True.

I'd like to point you to--...wait, what. I was going to quote the OP but then Webadict has no policy on lurkers. Webadict, when are prods sent to those who didn't post within a given time limit??

The weekends, though, seem to justify the...'lurk' (Except Soldier who looks to have lost connection lately,) the whole case above points to one thing. Lynch lurkers because it will provide more information than lynching whomever is scummier, regardless of any case ongoing at the moment?! You didn't mention anything along these lines, ever. Nor did you answer Griff's questions regarding your Ranger case here.

Second, is your case with Ranger going anywhere? Its running in circles about his opinion when you could've asked it (the questions you're doing now) earlier. Do you have anything else regarding Ranger other than that?

TWS:... Now I get where you're coming from.

And it's only now I realize that my part regarding TolyK didn't send in in any of those posts in between the link and the second-ish vote. :/ My mind was thinking that I did reply to TolyK, and then got caught up with the things in between the post after that and everything in between...

Well, the only thing I can attribute that to is forgetfulness -- he didn't post between that and past the vote; one factor there and the second being forgetfulness itself (in which I'd check if it posted down there) -- that I was mulling too much over Zrk and the rest. Nothing else I can honestly say but that.

Addressing your points in numerical order:
1. ...Yeah, that's the reason I re-voted him. I did think that I posted a reply to his post and thus went on to re-vote him due to the lack of answer to it...only to find that the thing didn't post.
2. In regard to the above, this would also answer #5: I thought I asked TolyK a question which he hadn't replied to so my vote stuck to him as I questioned the others. What I did not do was FoS them --
4. ...Now that you say it, yeah, it was harsh, but at the time I was baffled on why you were focusing on me re-voting a person who didn't reply to my (should have been) post. That was what I meant by "The reiteration of a vote is to remind the person that I'm still voting them". Which is now answering my question on why he had nothing addressing my when he did reply, which I didn't go back to look at...
5. In that context, yes. During that time however, the one I was pressuring was Zrk. Pressuring in a way to resolve me being confused about him. Until now.


Griff: Compared to your reason on DS here, you unvoted because he requested a replacement or something else?

[Tiruin]

EBWOP: That post was PFP btw. Ty typing skills.

[Griffionday]

Griff: Compared to your reason on DS here, you unvoted because he requested a replacement or something else?

Pretty much.  More than that by requesting a replacement he is obviously no longer a threat until he gets replaced.  As such my vote on him is pointless as A) he can't be pressured into responding, B) is not able to give a defense for his actions, and C) isn't a threat unless replaced tomorrow.

[Griffionday]

Okay everyone;  Day ends in nine.  I think day one has been fairly exhausted, so I don't see a point to a second extend.
On that note: Appose Extend

Spoiler: Unofficial (LT) Votecount (click to show/hide)

Zrk2: Tiruin, Sheep, DS(?)
Ford: Toaster, Griffionday
UI:    Ranger, Hapah
Tiruin: Hapah
DS:   Vector
Ranger: Zrk2, UI, NQT
NQT:  The Soldier(?), Zrk2
Vector: UI
No vote: Ford, TolyK, NQT

Note: Most recent suspicion is recorded assuming it is later than the vote.

No real leader, so please take the time to conclude your day's arguments.  I'll be back with actual questions in about four or so hours.  For now though

Ford:
Please respond

[RangerCado]

I'm going to keep my vote on UI. I'll stick to my arguements and give Zrk the benafit of the doubt until Day 2. Unless someone does something incredibly scummy in the next few hours, i won't be changing this.

[Vector]

Yeah.  I thought that there might be some point to Deathsword just being exhausted, so I took a naked vote to check the reaction.  Folks who know they've been lurking will often jump a mile if someone votes them like that.

Anyway, I didn't get any data on him out of that, but I was voting him due to lurking, reactive rather than proactive playing, stealing other folks' questions, having weak answers, blah blah blah.  For now, Unvote, though I'm going to grill the replacement.

NQT.  You've lovers'd a couple of people and ever since then you've pretty much disappeared off the map; at the moment you're not even voting.  Why do you think that your gambit exempts you from scumhunting?

[Captain Ford]

PFP

Ford:
Please respond

Okay. I've been working on this post for 4 hours, but being at work, I get interrupted a lot.

You seemed to forgot what leads you were attempting to chain together...

Yep. That's pretty much what's going on. Every time I come back to this game, it's like I'm looking at it for the first time.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I got screwed over by my pharmacist and I'm taking a generic form of Adderall that I'm not used to. It's making it really hard for me to keep my head in the game, particularly when my brain doesn't want to work very hard. That and the fact that most of the time I have to post comes when I'm at work. (I wanted to post more last night, but I totally lost access the forums around 7pm)

I'm having a very difficult time processing so much information. I've been weighing whether or not I should request a replacement. I think I'm still managing well enough, though.

I don't agree that the points about Zrk2's playstyle are WIFOM. To be WIFOM it would have to have some kind of cyclic reasoning or no obvious conclusion, and (at least to me) it's very straightforward. Repeating the past and expecting a different result is madness.


PFP

Ford:  I asked you what the scummiest thing you've seen so far was.  You respond with this. Not pictured: an actual answer to the question.

Correct. I had no answer to the question at that time.

What I got for you right now is:
- Vector voting for Deathsword out of the blue.
- Hapah did something ... I forget what ... I'll look again
- Tiruin voted Tolyk for a while without adding additional pressure (meh)
- Ranger has been dropping a lot of scummy-looking tells, which I've mostly sorted out as careless phrasing.
- Zrk2 is stubborn. Have to admire his persistence in light of being repeatedly mislynched.
- You pinged on my scumdar once or twice. Small things in the way you've phrased stuff and the way you've approached people. In general, that usually happens when you're playing town. It happened in M&M&H and ... I'm not sure when else, but that's not the only time.
- Urist Imiknorris pinged my towndar recently when he FoSed Vector.
- Tiruin hasn't been terribly effective.
- Tolyk feels the same way he did in other games I've read, even if he's not terrible effective either.
- TheWetSheep ... hmm ...

I guess this expanded into a general reads list.

Reading over your posts, you've been softballing and making nice with people all day.  I think you're buddying Zrk2 and softballing the crap out of NQT.  Ranger... your interaction with him is weak and noncomittal.

All true. I would cry myself to sleep in shame if it weren't for the fact that I'm doing the best I can manage and I know it.

Let me re-ask my question.  Who is scum and why?  See if you can answer without waffling.  I bet you can't.

Hmm...

No, I probably can't.

This post was rushed and I will try to write an actual answer once I'm done putting up this week's newsletter.

[Griffionday]

Ford

I don't agree that the points about Zrk2's playstyle are WIFOM. To be WIFOM it would have to have some kind of cyclic reasoning or no obvious conclusion, and (at least to me) it's very straightforward. Repeating the past and expecting a different result is madness.

But you yourself admit you don't know how he plays when scummy and requested us to reconsider our votes and logic anyway; using only this outside data that normally would not be applied.  Which is as you say causing caution on our reads, which is a town goal.  But the fashion you did it in, and your resulting suspicions from our reactions seem targeted to disrupt all our chains of logic, cause us to suspect each-other more, and throw us into confusion which is a VERY scum goal.  But you wouldn't be so blatant in fulfilling that goal if you were scum, so you must be town... WIFOM. 

If you are scum I must applaud how well this was done, if you're town WHY???.  Please explain why you chose to do it that way, when you got no solid reads from it.

[Zrk2]

No update tonight, so just assume you sat around twiddling your thumbs. I'll get one up tomorrow morning.

Isn't this the official day-end, making all those votes pointless?

[Griffionday]

No update tonight, so just assume you sat around twiddling your thumbs. I'll get one up tomorrow morning.

Isn't this the official day-end, making all those votes pointless?

Day Ends Wednesday at 9 PM Central.

Day Extended.

Not quite yet