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[Meph]

Ok. Bear with me for a moment.

TrueTransformation, a dfhack plugin, allows multiple transformations. This is huge. Apart from all kinds of shenanigans that you can do with this, you can do a Guild System. And I mean a big one. There is a big suggestion post about Guilds, which I will quote here, so that everyone knows what I mean.

Spoiler: Massive Post about Guilds (click to show/hide)

Support the Eternal Suggestion System
The purpose of this thread is to clarify, discuss, and flesh out the suggestion to bring back the old Guild Masters and Military Orders to fulfill many of the requests for added special abilities and management controls. The Rough draft was originally posted in this thread: Council of Nobles.

Please, as a courtesy to me and others interested in this topic, read the thread, and any important links in it before attempting to change the course of discussion. For those new to the game, the information concerning the original Guild Masters can be found here on the old 2D wiki.  You can read about their job mandates here. The current job groupings in the game are found here.
What Exactly a Guild Is:

• A Guild in Dwarf Fortress is a collection of skilled dwarves that have come together to form a social and economic unit.
• These Guilds (or Houses) are organized on the local (Fortress), Kingdom, and World (All of Dwarfdom) levels.
• Most established fortresses contain chapters of at least one guild. The larger cities and capitols contain major guildhalls for all guilds present in the Kingdom. The Guilds cooperate across multiple Kingdoms to preserve the lore of their trades, as well as to promote the interests of their members.
• Guilds are organized around similar skill sets, most recognizable by a player as the color of the dwarf (White for Masons, Yellow for Carpenters).
• Guilds have three names really. We, the players, refer to the Engineers Guild for simplicity. The Dwarves refer to this type of guild as House Olon (Gear in the dwarven tongue), but each such guild also has a unique random name, generated during WorldGen.
• In a Fortress, a Guild is most clearly manifested by the existence of a dedicated noble, the Guild Master. When a Guild Forms in your fortress, the members will choose one amongst themselves to fill this role.

Why you would want more nobles:

• Many players already have difficulty handling the present nobles. But many of the nobles provide special features that help the fortress survive. The Broker makes trade far easier: you get better deals, know how much something is worth etc. The Mayor handles many complaints, giving disgruntled dwarves a place to vent and get a happy thought.
• Many players are also requesting new features like prospecting, automatic queuing of jobs, control over resources and workshops, relocating of tombs, safer sparring, and others in order to help manage a growing fort.
• Game Balance is a difficult issue, and one of the most direct ways to control this is by providing negative effects to balance any new positive ability.

What Guild Masters do:

• Everything they used to do. That is, that like the broker, mayor, manager and record keeper the player has complete control over their labor settings.
• Some Guild Masters will gain extra labors made possible by the organization. (ie Prospecting for the Miners Guild).
• Some Guild Masters will have additional settings (like the record keeper) on the Nobles Screen.
• Many Guilds involve additional controls or jobs queuing. To maintain these abilities, the Guild Master must work in his/her office.
• Guild Masters will assist in the training of guild members.
• All Guild Masters will start having meetings:
  • With Guild Members to hear complaints much like the Mayor currently does.
  • With the Mayor to petition for job mandates and/or wage increases.
  • (Optionally) With a Guild Representative to discuss Guild Business.
• When a "job mandate" is not completed, instead of resulting in a beating or jail time for a member, the GM will call a strike: All members will ignore jobs relating to the guild until such time as the strike ends in a few weeks. All members immediately get a bad thought. The GM will also revoke any benefits they provide. Non-members can still be changed over to the labors so that work will continue, but this will be inferior and (Toady willing) result is bad feelings and maybe violence.
• They alter the pattern of immigration. Small Guilds will attract more immigrants of that professional type, which may or may not already be members of the Guild. Large Guilds start attracting specialists from other Guild chapters, with a single guild skill at "Skilled" level.
• If your Guild is short of a highly skilled dwarf, perhaps the Guildmaster can import a specialist from another guild chapter.
• Workshops can be set to "Guild Only" under Workshop Preferences.
• It has been suggested that the integration of Dwarf Foreman could be linked to Guilds. Having a guild would allow you control over member's labors en masse, as well as to set labors based on skill ("only Proficient or above engravers have engraving on until I say otherwise").

What Guilds Can Form and Their Benefits: The following is a list of suggestions, and not all could, or should be implemented.
(See also Appendix A: Suggested Changes to Guild Skills)

• The Miners Guild - House Tekkud (Pick)
  Governs the professions of Miner
  
  • The GM gains a new labor, Prospecting.
  • The GMs settings screen gives you access to the mineral log, a zoom-to list of all the strikes you've made.
  • On the same screen you can set each ore type to be automatically designated for mining.
  • One suggestion is a designate option to only mine ore, gems, or a specific stone type.
• The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
  Governs the professions of Bowyer, Carpenter, Woodcutter and Wood Worker
  
  • Carpenter's and Bowyer's shops can specify which type of wood to use.
  • Under the GMs settings (Nobles screen) there is an option to override tree cutting designations that would cause the fortress to violate an agreement with the elves.
  • Also under the GM settings, a minimum level of wood can be set. Any repeat jobs trying to break this minimum will automatically be canceled.
  • The Guild Master can plant a few Tower Caps to start a cave forest.
• The Stoneworkers Guild - House Lam (Stone)
  Governs the professions of Engraver, Mason and Stoneworker
  
  • The Stones screen gains a MASON selection.
  • The Manager's work cue can now select specific stone types. IE: MAKE OBSIDIAN TABLES (10).
• The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
  Governs the professions of Ambusher, Animal Caretaker, Animal Trainer, Animal Dissecter, Trapper and Ranger.
  
  • You can set max populations of a given animal type. Excess are butchered.
  • Pets can be slaughtered, but with very bad thoughts.
  • The GM could absorb or mimic the Dungeon Masters ability to tame anything.
  • The GM could authorize the trade of rare land animals.
  • The GM, if a hunter, could organize the hunters into a squad for safer hunting.
• The Smiths Guild  - House Zuntir (Anvil)
  Governs the professions of Furnace Operating, Armorsmith, Metal Crafter, Blacksmith, Weapon Smith and Metal Smith.
  
  • When items are designated to melt, the GM will auto-cue the furnaces.
  • Set minimums for all bar types. Repeat jobs that attempt to break this minimum get canceled.
  • Forges will recognize items designated for decoration
  • Forges can be set and labeled to only perform certain functions (armor, weapons, stud, furniture, etc). The Manager would respect such limitations.
• The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
  Governs the professions of Gem Cutter, Gem Setter and Jeweler.
  
  • The GM could have a slight chance of extracting a gem from an unmined gem deposit, without depleting it. - OR -
  • The GM would have a slight chance of getting more than one cut gem from a rough one.
  • Jeweler's Workshops would recognize items designated for decoration.
• The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
  Governs the professions of Bone Carver, Clothier, Glass Maker, Leather Worker, Stone Crafter. Wood Crafter, Weaver, Strand Extractor, and Craftdwarf.
  
  • Adds a CRAFT selection to the Stones menu.
  • Specific Materials/Types can be chosen in Manager's Orders. IE:MAKE ASH PICCOLO(10) or MAKE TALC RING(5)
  • Craft, Cloth, and Leather Workshops recognize items designated for decoration
  • Workshops could be set and labeled to only work with certain materials (Rock, Bone, Shell, etc). The Manager would respect such limitations.
• The Fishworkers Guild - House Tatlosh (Fish)
  Governs the professions of Fish Cleaner, Fish Dissector, Fisherdwarf and Fishery Worker.
  
  • The GM Auto-cues Fish cleaning Jobs
  • The GM could organize and regulate fishing in order to prevent depleting the waters.
  • The GM could authorize the trade of rare water animals.
• The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
  Governs the professions of Brewer, Butcher, Cheese Maker, Cook, Dyer, Grower, Herbalist, Lye Maker, Milker, Miller, Potash Maker, Soaper, Tanner, Thresher, Wood Burner and Farmer.
  
  • On the GMs settings you can set reserve seeds for planting.
  • On the same screen, you can set some conditional settings, IE Mill Sweet Pods over 50, Process (to bag) all Quarry Pods, or Cook all Blunt Tubers over 30.
  • The Kitchen Screen gains new controls for EAT and MILL
• The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
  Governs the professions of Mechanic, Pump Operator, Siege Engineer, Siege Operator and Engineer.
  
  • Adds a MECHANICS tab to the Stones screen.
  • Can make metal mechanisms at the forge
  • Could have a new labor "tune mechanism". Upon completely such a labor on a mechanism or siege engine, the item in question would work faster or for less power.
• The Undertakers Guild - House Rash (Death) Should Probably be Replaced by a Religious Suggestion, like this one.
  Historically this is an odd guild; it triggers when you have enough dead (20+). Since no skill is involved it will have to have unique criteria. I'd like to keep it in for nostalgia.
  
  • On the GM's settings (or as a subsection of the Unit's List) there is a list of all the dead dwarves' and pets' remains (and possibly enemies/wild animals that still exist). From this list you can zoom to the fallen's location.
    
  • Assign tombs to already dead dwarves. Remains will be moved.
  • The GM will conduct a funeral service giving all attendees (those that liked or really hated the deceased) a happy thought.
• The Military Orders - Order of the Ax, Sword, Spear, Mace, Hammer or Crossbow - varied
  • The GM serves as an instructor, improving skill gain and reducing training injury.
  • One requested feature (albeit for the CotG) was for a detailed breakdown of troop readiness (if we are short of armor or weapons, how many are wounded etc)

What Guild Masters and Guilds Require:

• General Requirements: Rather than fill this thread with a list of "needs X quality bathroom", it is safe to assume Toady can handle that aspect. Needless to say they will require bedrooms, offices, dining rooms, and/or tombs. The original GMs requirements can be found on this table. Below are unique and specific requirements.
• Staged Requirements: A really good suggestion was that the GMs requirements would be staged to improve as the Guild grows. When it first forms, the GM might only need a meager office for example, but need a fine office when the guild gets larger.
• House of Rash (The Dead): This nobles obsession with death and the afterlife requires an extensive tomb, much better than its living arrangements. This Noble could also require a bed, table, chair etc in their tomb. If Toady wants to avoid making the code for such a specific requirement, instead the House Rash Master could frequently demand such objects in their tomb like current nobles do for all their rooms.
• Military Orders: These nobles would need a dedicated barracks (or an archery target for the Order of the Bow) in which to conduct their training. The Guildmaster does not need to actually spar to confer its bonuses.

How Guild Halls Work:

• Guilds have their own private designated meeting area, where they socialize amongst themselves when idle or on break.
• A very new and small Guild will be content using its Guild Master's office as meeting area.
• As the Guild grows however, it will need a dedicated Guild Hall. Failure to provide one will result in unhappy thoughts to all members, and could lead to a strike.
• Guild Halls, when possible, are designated off of Guild related buildings, such as:
• The Stoneworkers Guild uses a Statue.
• The Animal Handlers Guild uses a Cage.
• The Fisherdwarves Guild uses a Filled Pond.
• The Farmers Guild uses a Millstone.
• The Engineers Guild uses a Gear Assembly.
• The Order of the Sword, Ax, Hammer, Mace and Spear each use a Weapon Rack.
• The Order of the Crossbow uses an Archery Target.

How and When Guilds Form:

• When your population of a certain job category reaches a certain minimum in either skill or members, the workers hold a meeting, which is announced. "Your _____ workers are forming a guild chapter." Options for the requirements include:
  
  • Having a given population (5-10) at skilled level or above in any Guild skill. This would be easy to attain if you wanted it, but also prevent accidental Guild formation from immigrants. This option does not work well in professions where usually you have fewer, more skilled dwarves (ie Mechanics, Jewelers)
  • A set percentage (10%) of the Fort must have a guild profession. This has the advantage of limiting the overall number of guilds in a given fort, but could spring a guild just from one big immigrant wave.
  • A specific amount of experience (25000-50000) has to be obtained in Guild Skills. Conceptually the best choice but a veteran fort would likely end up with all of the guilds, many of which would have only one or two dwarves.
  • A specific number of job completions in Guild skills. Also an excellent choice for realism, but shares the same weaknesses as an experience total.
  • Not knowing the exact method Toady used in the previous incarnation of Guilds, it is likely the optimal solution involves a little bit of all of the above options.
• Alternately, when word reaches the Mountainhomes via the Liaison, the Guild could send a representative or an edict (again via the Liaison) offering or commanding your dwarves to form a local chapter.
• During the meeting the two dwarves with the highest average job category skill levels are selected as candidates. Among the two of them, the most popular is chosen as the local Guild Master. This dwarf becomes a "noble". All others have the option of joining the Guild.
• In the case of a succession, the above procedure is repeated by guild members to select a new Guild Master.

How Dwarves join the Guild:

• To be eligible to join a guild, dwarf must be categorized by the game as part of that job category. Players recognize this most by the color of the dwarf. To join the Woodworkers Guild, for instance, the game must title the dwarf as a carpenter, bowyer, woodcutter, or woodworker. If the categories change, the guilds will have to be modified to adjust to said changes.
• A dwarf can only be a member of one Guild at a time. If a dwarf changes profession and become eligible to join another guild, the dwarf will have to choose. Leaving a Guild will generate a negative relation with all other members. However, performing a labor of another guild without joining will generate negative relations with them. (Also see further discussion here.)
• The decision will be based on three criteria: The social relations between the dwarf and members of each Guild, the relative skill levels between the guild skill sets (with the current Guild being weighted), and personal likes/dislikes for materials as a tie-breaker.
• New immigrants and other eligible dwarves will be asked to a meeting by the GM to discuss joining.  Failing to join damages the social standing of that dwarf with all guild members. Invitational meetings will be scheduled each time the dwarf rises in a guild skill. The negative social impact is cumulative.

While I cant really work with nobles, I can use buildings, reactions and transformations. And the caste system. I would scrap my old caste system and base the entire dwarven society on guilds. Guild members could give each others slight buffs. Guild members get different attributes and skills and skill learn rates. Dwarves could become a guild member in guildhouse workshop, and they transform into a "guild apprentice". This apprentice gets minor buffs. After a year, he transforms into a "guild member" getting more buffs, and after 3 more years, a "guild master". This guild master also gets an interaction that stops all other dwarves from becoming guildmaster of that guild, that way you can only have one. He gets a very high buff.

I could make a workshop category for Guildhouses, (10-12 probably) and each guild has their own headquarter. These houses would of course require buildings mats that fit the guilds theme, and the reaction to join a guild would cost something as well. So if your "carpenter guild member" suddently joins the "masons guild", because you need more masons, he will lose his carpentry buffs, and gain small masonry buffs... after a year, he becomes a full guild member.

Now... all this is probably quite a bit of work. So I just wanted to know what people think of all this, before I do anything. Maybe other modders will chime in with ideas as well. I know that most things in the big post I quoted are not possible through modding, but we can do other things.

I personally like the idea very much. Give dwarves the option to join the Legion of the Dead, or the Freemasons, or House Stark Raving Mad.

[Gaybarowner]

Hm I like it a lot. If such is possible what if you added minor ranks to it such as "Making 10 masterwork items" or such for better bonuses other than that posting to see what comes about

[Meph]

Gaybarowner, this is sadly not possible and your punctuation is atrocious. You might of course want to ignore me on that one.

[Gaybarowner]

Gaybarowner, this is sadly not possible and your punctuation is atrocious. You might of course want to ignore me on that one.

:[ there goes my smile for the day

[Deon]

The reason I've invented dwarven caste system is because I was one of those people who wanted guilds back.

Now a new era dawns upon dwarves. I have a bit different vision on how to do it, but otherwise my general ideas about guilds and castes are close to yours. Time to brainstorm!

[Meph]

Well, I will just leave this here and see what people can come up with. I cant really upgrade guild members based upon how much work they do, so time seemed to be the most useful alternative.

What is your idea deon?

[Deon]

Well, initially a dwarf "signs contract" in a guildhouse. Then he becomes level 1 apprentice.

Every time he's on break for a long period of time, he gets a level (transforms into a different aprentice). They need free time to think about what they have learned (consider it Morrowind's sleep variant). So if you interrupt dwarves with siren a lot, they take longer to progress in their guilds.

I just need to figure out how to set up "levels". I don't want them to be separate creatures. Would castes with POP_RATIO:0 work? I remember back in the days you could still find creatures of castes with ratio 0, is it fixed now?

There can be also items which bestow syndromes only on appropriate guilds and guild levels using Putnam's itemSyndrome.

[Meph]

That would reward dwarves that are lazy. ^^

Break timer would work, but how many levels do you plan? You would have to make a transformation every time he makes a break. The break timer values dont accumulate. Pop_Ratio:0 is still broken as far as I know, it would have to be creature castes. Skills and skill learn rates cant be changed by interaction/syndromes.

Caste/Guild specific items would be possible, I wanted to do a "legion of the dead" armor for the Legionnaires. But other then military uniforms, how would you assign the items to specific dwarves? Yeah, miner = picks, and woodcutter = axe, but thats about it. Except you want to give wood a syndrome, to be applied to all carpenter-guild members

My idea with apprentice, member and master would be based on castes with low pop-ratio as well. You get a farmers guild member as a migrant? thats ok, Why not?

[Deon]

I meant pop_ratio:0 on the castes... Would you still get immigrants with levels in guilds then?

[Meph]

Thats what I meant too. Pop_Ratio:0 castes will still appear as far as I know. Granted, I havent tested it in a while, but I dont think that df34 fixed that without mentioning it anywhere.

[Vherid]

Oh man this is definitely something I would like to eventually include in my cult of ra mod. You could use it for religion as well with all the cults or sects or whatever. People join and start their long journey of worship and perils and over time they go from simple acolytes/cultists to zealous paragons and etc.

[IamanElfCollaborator]

I was going to do this for adventure mode. I was thinking that for soldier guilds that you level them by COMBAT_HARDNESS via self targeted interaction with no usage hint.

[Laggy]

Couldn't you do guild promotions based on the amount of XP the dwarf gains in a particular set of skills?

Like, when a dwarf joins a guild, store his personal XP in the relevant skills.  Then, after each reaction he runs in that labor set, check if his XP went up above Y amount, and if so, promote him?

I'm pretty sure its possible with the lua engine

[Meph]

Couldn't you do guild promotions based on the amount of XP the dwarf gains in a particular set of skills?

Like, when a dwarf joins a guild, store his personal XP in the relevant skills.  Then, after each reaction he runs in that labor set, check if his XP went up above Y amount, and if so, promote him?

I'm pretty sure its possible with the lua engine

I certainly cant. Not with modding.

I was going to do this for adventure mode. I was thinking that for soldier guilds that you level them by COMBAT_HARDNESS via self targeted interaction with no usage hint.

I have this for the kobold castes, that works in a way.

[smakemupagus]

Meph, I don't have too many ideas to add yet but this is a great idea and you should do it