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[pilgrimboy]

And two people coming along justifying lying explains to me why there is lying and it is acceptable. It might just be a small Midwest rural town like the one I live in doesn't accept lying. But, obviously, others do. It's baffling to me.

Seriously?  People lie all the time no matter their location; in places like that it's mostly lies of omission and passive-aggressive statements behind others backs.

We're talking about outright lies of commission here.

Most lies of omission are just not being a jerk.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

We're talking about outright lies of commission here.

Most lies of omission are just not being a jerk.

Even if we narrow it down to that, lying remains a morally neutral action. It is only the consequences that matter.

For example:

Moral Lying: You are living in Nazi Germany, and being an upstanding paragon of virtue you are hiding Jews in your secret attic compartment. A Nazi officer knocks on your door and asks you if you have seen any Jews or Jew-hiders in the area. If you say no, then you are by definition making a lie of commission. You've seen Jews because they're in your attic, and you've seen a Jew-hider because you are one. But not many people would argue that it would be moral to tell the truth in this situation, getting both you and the Jews in your attic killed.

Amoral Lying: Someone asks you if you know about modern Greek history, just as a curiosity. You have a headache and don't want to discuss modern Greek history, but you know this person won't shut up if they know you know. You could tell the truth and try to evade a discussion, or lie and get them off your back. Either way, you aren't going to talk about modern Greek history and there are no consequences for either action anyway. Morality does not enter this event at all.

Immoral Lying: You were the sole witness to the accidental but avoidable death of a person due to some form of corporate cost-cutting. Your testimony could make or break whether there is ever justice for this person's family. But you don't feel like dealing with the trial, so you give a half-assed testimony that comes out to "I didn't see anything significant", knowing nobody could even suspect you didn't. You get out of the trial's view as quickly as possible, and nothing ever comes of the charges.

[Euld]

*waves* I'm also angry about EA's outright lies concerning the always online DRM for SimCity.  People are able to open the debugger in SimCity and allow offline play without affecting the main game at all.  It is a lie.  And I wish I had the power to make sure it was the last lie EA has smothered in our faces.

[Gunner-Chan]

It's just amazing how much simcity drama there is pouring out of the internet lately, it's almost the new War Z in terms of clusterfuck and how fun it is to follow.

... I miss the war z drama actually. I hope they mess up super bad again soon.

Really I don't see how this is surprising. Unless well, you quite literally live under a rock. Everyone expects this kind of behavior from the more questionable AAA studios these days (Not even just game studios). Though lately EA has been a lot worse than Activision there.

I also find it funny that chrome thinks I wanted to spell "Vivisection" and not "Activision"

[pilgrimboy]

Okay. Then I will go with your definitions.

Then I will go with immoral lying has become acceptable.

Although, I don't know if the marketing/politicking lying is really of that lofty of a category. It's more of a manipulative lying.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Okay. Then I will go with your definitions.

Then I will go with immoral lying has become acceptable.

Although, I don't know if the marketing/politicking lying is really of that lofty of a category. It's more of a manipulative lying.

They aren't definitions, they're just examples of lying falling into multiple moral categories.

As before, lying in all its formats and moral statuses has been omnipresent throughout human history. If a species can communicate, it can lie. There have even been studies demonstrating outright lying (in nonhuman higher primates) and lie-like behaviors (in other species).

[Loud Whispers]

People have been lying since they could talk, not gonna change.

And if you ever believed politicians where telling the truth, you are just gullible.

Roman rhetors would have learned to use the truth and language to achieve the goals they want. Tad bit different from just plain out lying.

[Boea]

.. Really I don't see how this is surprising. ..

People really like the game, it's an issue since it gets at what people like. :v
The only surprise is how far they are willing to go to try and fail at doing PR.

War Z, it's mostly on the back burner, no one really cares, and it's off the major provider, steam, good times though.

[Loud Whispers]

If we couldn't lie we couldn't communicate at all.

Not at all. If we all lied all the time communication would be rendered useless, the very polar opposite itself. As we can see we still communicate, at the highest level we still have a majority of people who speak the truth the majority of the time.

[alexandertnt]

Even if we narrow it down to that, lying remains a morally neutral action. It is only the consequences that matter.

It is more complicated then that. (morality is not just all Consequentialism) For example:

Only the consequences matter with Utilitarianism since if there is no deficit in wellbeing/happyness then nothing bad has taken place, and thus it is not unethical.

But with Virtue Ethics lying is a bad virtue regardless of the consequences, and thus is unethical and is not moral even if it has not negatively impacted anyone.

[Max White]

Lying is a basic function of communication. If we couldn't lie we couldn't communicate at all, because lying is nothing more than sending knowingly false communicative data to another person.

What no. False. We could still communicate, we just couldn't selectively communicate to our own ends.
Agree with pretty much everything else you said though.

[RedKing]

It depends on the sort of lie. Many lies will never be find out and are of little consequence anyway ('white' lies). Then there are the more important lies, like "I did not kill that man", or "No, I did not sleep with your sister."

And generally, if you *don't* make that second lie, someone else is going to wind up having to make the first one. 

I shared your outrage....10-15 years ago. Now I just give up. For me, it's the fact that people in politics can utter boldfaced, on-the-record lies, be confronted with empirical, conclusive evidence that they lied, and just shrug and keep repeating the same lies. And no one gives a good goddamn.

If I was running for office, I'd claim that I could reduce the deficit six bazillion dollars a year, and that my opponent rapes dead babies.

[Graknorke]

Lying is a basic function of communication. If we couldn't lie we couldn't communicate at all, because lying is nothing more than sending knowingly false communicative data to another person.

What no. False. We could still communicate, we just couldn't selectively communicate to our own ends.
Agree with pretty much everything else you said though.

I think that MSH meant that there is no functional difference between telling the truth and telling a lie.

[pilgrimboy]

If we couldn't lie we couldn't communicate at all.

Not at all. If we all lied all the time communication would be rendered useless, the very polar opposite itself. As we can see we still communicate, at the highest level we still have a majority of people who speak the truth the majority of the time.

There was a book I read a while back,  What Price the Moral High Ground?: How to Succeed without Selling Your Soul. It talked about how non-liars would deal only with non-liars if we knew who the liars were. Part of developing good business relationships (and relationships in general) is finding people who won't lie to us, that we can trust, and who want to develop relationships that are mutually beneficial.

[RedKing]

If we couldn't lie we couldn't communicate at all.

Not at all. If we all lied all the time communication would be rendered useless, the very polar opposite itself. As we can see we still communicate, at the highest level we still have a majority of people who speak the truth the majority of the time.

There was a book I read a while back,  What Price the Moral High Ground?: How to Succeed without Selling Your Soul. It talked about how non-liars would deal only with non-liars if we knew who the liars were. Part of developing good business relationships (and relationships in general) is finding people who won't lie to us, that we can trust, and who want to develop relationships that are mutually beneficial.

And then stabbing them in the back.