Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 309 310 [311] 312 313 ... 341

Author Topic: Additional CIA japes [DPRK Thread]  (Read 541291 times)

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4650 on: September 16, 2017, 10:44:42 am »

Tech feats yes. "High-tech" is a questionable term. At this stage they haven't actually demonstrated any tech that didn't already exist by the early 1950s. if they produced a 1970s stereo would that be "high tech?"

Old tech can still be pretty dangerous, but just calling anything like that "high tech" misses the point on how much ground has been covered since that stuff was actually groundbreaking in any way. Being able to replicate some feats from 60-70 years ago doesn't mean they're magically going to make fully-conceived weapons systems that cut it in the modern day. You also need a lot of resources to deploy weapons systems in any credible way, and NK's total fuel consumption is almost unbelievably low. Rockets even with nukes on them, or tanks, fighters and bombers aren't much use if you have virtually no fuel to power them.

EDIT: We can also look at the history of rocket design and work out where they are in comparision to the equivalent USA/USSR designs. Currently they have shittier specs than the USA's Atlas or USSR's R-7 from 1957. However ... if you consider the size and yield of their claimed thermonuclear warhead, it's decades ahead of their known rocket design, and equivalent to roughly the USA's W80, which was designed at Los Alamos and deployed in the 1980s. The logical problem here is that their rocket designer was made a general, yet his rockets aren't up to the 1957 standard. If they had a nuclear scientist capable of producing late-generation warheads equivalent to Reagan-era designs, why isn't he famous and made a general as well? A miniaturized h-bomb would be a much more amazing feat than the rockets they are producing. Without some additional clues, it's easier to believe that they detonated a large fission bomb like the USA did in 1952, and they're spinning it that it's a thermonuclear warhead while their guys are "working on it".
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 11:56:20 am by Reelya »
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4651 on: September 16, 2017, 11:25:47 am »

Interestingly, that being one of the problems with the technically superior German military machine in WWW.
Logged

misko27

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lawful Neutral; Prophet of Pestilence
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4652 on: September 16, 2017, 11:44:21 am »

Interestingly, that being one of the problems with the technically superior German military machine in WWW.
I don't think that's actually a sentence.
Logged
The Age of Man is over. It is the Fire's turn now

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4653 on: September 16, 2017, 01:24:32 pm »

Interestingly, that being one of the problems with the technically superior German military machine in WWW.
I don't think that's actually a sentence.
The "2" is on the "w" spot on this touchscreen keyboard.

I did, of course, mean to say "8n5343s58ngl6, 5ha5 b38ng 9n3 9f 5h3 049bl3ms 285h 5h3 53chn8call6 s7034894 G34man m8l85a46 mach8n3 8n 22W"

i.e. just my failure to use the 5603248534.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 01:29:22 pm by Starver »
Logged

Antioch

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4654 on: September 16, 2017, 02:04:16 pm »

Interestingly, that being one of the problems with the technically superior German military machine in WWW.

Germans did not have a technically superior war machine in WW2.

The area's the Allies were ahead in were far more influential than those the Germans were ahead in.

Some examples: radar/sonar, decryption/encryption, nuclear weapons, proximity fuzes, anti biotics.
Logged
You finish ripping the human corpse of Sigmund into pieces.
This raw flesh tastes delicious!

IronyOwl

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nope~
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4655 on: September 16, 2017, 02:29:02 pm »

I agree there's likely a huge amount of posturing and propaganda on NKs side. But let's not forget about the (whether or not intentional) propaganda of the West, which has been constantly painting NK as crazy and inept. They've proven to be able to achieve high-tech feats, which do require a technological and knowledge base larger than just one lucky guy doodling in a garage. Let's not deny that they can do this shit.
Now, do they currently already have a fully functioning missile that could hit what they want to hit? I don't know, and neither do you.
But if they don't have it yet, then they're going to soon - all those tests are not just for show, they provide them with data on what is and what isn't working.
Man, you can't just hop from "they've accomplished things" to "if they haven't accomplished every single thing they claim to have, they will soon." Especially not from a country that's claimed to have cured cancer already.
Logged
Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Il Palazzo

  • Bay Watcher
  • And lo, the Dude did abide. And it was good.
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4656 on: September 16, 2017, 02:35:06 pm »

Man, you can't just hop from "they've accomplished things" to "if they haven't accomplished every single thing they claim to have, they will soon." Especially not from a country that's claimed to have cured cancer already.
But they already have the technology in question! They're flying the rockets and they're exploding the bombs. Can you see the difference in the difficulty of perfecting what they already have and coming up with something they don't?
Logged

Reelya

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4657 on: September 16, 2017, 03:04:55 pm »

But just launching a rocket is a whole level below deploying a working ICBM payload from a 3+ stage rocket. It's just qualitatively different to what you were saying about the V2 being guided by a gyroscope. You're not just getting a rocket to the target, the thing needs to leave the atmosphere, in 2-3 stages, then deploy a re-entry vehicle in space which has a very sensitive payload which needs to survive the launch and atmospheric re-entry and detonate at just the right height above your target. It's easy to get something up, less easy to make it land where you want.

According to sources, the quality of engineering output in North Korea is pretty suspect. The rockets they do have, have a very low level of reliability. And what sort of electronics do they produce? You do in fact need sophisticated electronics in advanced weapons. Just getting a rocket up doesn't automatically mean they have a good quality electronic industry.

Also, the bomb blast is well within the limits of fission bombs build ~65 years ago, so not necessarily a bomb that could actually go on said rocket. Remember these are the people who are also claiming they've just about reached numerical equality with the US military.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 03:22:39 pm by Reelya »
Logged

ChairmanPoo

  • Bay Watcher
  • Send in the clowns
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4658 on: September 16, 2017, 03:44:31 pm »

They already have a couple satellites in space. Really, its not that unfeasible
Logged
Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4659 on: September 16, 2017, 04:01:50 pm »

Germans did not have a technically superior war machine in WW2.
Second typo.  Machines
Logged

TheDarkStar

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4660 on: September 16, 2017, 04:38:23 pm »

From what I've read, NK still lacks good guidance systems and a way to deal with with reentry at the end of a ballistic trajectory. Without either of those, their ability to actually use an ICBM is limited.
Logged
Don't die; it's bad for your health!

it happened it happened it happen im so hyped to actually get attacked now

IronyOwl

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nope~
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4661 on: September 16, 2017, 04:57:55 pm »

But they already have the technology in question! They're flying the rockets and they're exploding the bombs. Can you see the difference in the difficulty of perfecting what they already have and coming up with something they don't?
Not on the scale you're suggesting. Incremental improvements to tech aren't a given once you have the base thing; you can't just say, well, we went to the moon already, clearly we'll have efficient moon colonies any day now. It takes time and effort and expertise to take a thing you have and make it a better thing, and in some cases it just doesn't work out; hence older techs frequently being replaced entirely rather than just refined upwards forever. "Rockets" is not a monolithic technology that you have or don't have; it's a vast field you can have greater or lesser success in various areas of.

Take conventional weaponry as an example. We know NK has guns. So clearly they have guns that surpass American equipment? Uhhhh, probably not. But they have guns! Clearly they should be able to refine them into ultramodern designs that match or exceed that of their enemies! But... it doesn't work that way. Having a thing doesn't guarantee you have the next step of a thing, that's actual work you need to be able and willing to do.

The obvious counterargument is that NK buys (or bought) its guns from elsewhere rather than designing and manufacturing them themselves, but you cannot with a straight face tell me cross-planet rocketry is easier to do than that. So either NK could have a modern and advanced conventional military but figures outdated Russian stuff is good enough, or you're glossing over at least as many steps to suggest they're doing just that with their long range missiles.
Logged
Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4662 on: September 16, 2017, 07:23:50 pm »

Old tech can still be pretty dangerous

Exactly, a spear can still be plenty dangerous, regardless of how ancient the technology is.

Yes, I know, if you pile on armor, the spear becomes moot, but that's besides the point. (pun not intended). Fakeedit: Actually, that reminds me of an old Civilization series bug where it would be possible to defeat a tank with a squad of spearmen, heh.

They already have a couple satellites in space. Really, its not that unfeasible

Allegedly they do. And a nonfunctional (whether broken satellite or a piece of rocket) satellite is still a satellite.
Logged

Helgoland

  • Bay Watcher
  • No man is an island.
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4663 on: September 16, 2017, 07:25:47 pm »

Bug? I always considered a realistic portrayal of the possibility of raids on, for example, the encampments or supply routes of the tank unit in question.
Logged
The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: A valid discussion topic [DPRK Thread]
« Reply #4664 on: September 16, 2017, 07:28:16 pm »

Bug? I always considered a realistic portrayal of the possibility of raids on, for example, the encampments or supply routes of the tank unit in question.

What bug are you talking about? And we're going REALLY offtopic here.

Also, Trump is going to be giving his first UN General Assembly address on Tuesday, and nobody really knows what he might say, other than hug allies and slap enemies according to Ambassador Nikki Haley. Here's to hoping he doesn't do something dumb to really piss off NK.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 07:38:48 pm by smjjames »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 309 310 [311] 312 313 ... 341