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[PatriotSaint]

Patriot, people will always try to escape a nation, no mater what nation it is. Hell, some people are trying to escape the US!

Right. What exactly is stopping them?

Canadian bear patrols.

Those damn Canadians.

[Aseaheru]

And the fact that no one wants skill-less americans.

[PatriotSaint]

Well, considering those who want to escape the U.S. want to do so due to their apparent incompetence; I'm not surprised that's the very reason they can't leave.

[Guardian G.I.]

Patriot, people will always try to escape a nation, no mater what nation it is. Hell, some people are trying to escape the US!

Right. What exactly is stopping them?

Canadian bear patrols.

Also, liberal-minded wind patterns and sea currents.

[PatriotSaint]

Well, now that we've managed to distract ourselves, I'll put this here again.

G.I., just wondering, you're not actually trying to defend the USSR and/or North Korea are you?

As to horror stories from the USSR, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, East German refugees etc. etc.

As to horror stories from NK, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, refugees, etc. etc.

If neither of them are "really that totalitarian and oppressive", I don't understand why so many people tried and still do (when it comes to NK) and risk so much to escape, then proceed to say so much about it.

Just look up interviews with refugees, or a few documentaries featuring them.

And for clarification, I have no sympathy for Americans who want to "escape" (a.k.a. move to another country) that are supposedly so incompetent that the only thing in their way is said incompetence.

I'm pretty sure NK refugees weren't fiddling over their future career choice as they crawled under electric fences and escaped in rickety boats to South Korea and other nations.

[Aseaheru]

Well, considering those who want to escape the U.S. want to do so due to their apparent incompetence; I'm not surprised that's the very reason they can't leave.

How seemingly small minded of you. Not everyone likes the US, as shown above, and while some of them may not be the smartest they are certainly not all useless idiots. Its just most of them dont have the skills to get citizenship elsewhere or the money to move.



And please tell me when I said that lack of skills was the only thing in there way?

[PatriotSaint]

Well, considering those who want to escape the U.S. want to do so due to their apparent incompetence; I'm not surprised that's the very reason they can't leave.

How seemingly small minded of you. Not everyone likes the US, as shown above, and while some of them may not be the smartest they are certainly not all useless idiots. Its just most of them dont have the skills to get citizenship elsewhere or the money to move.


And please tell me when I said that lack of skills was the only thing in there way?

"How seemingly small-minded of you."

Apologies for appearing to have a "small mind".

"Not everyone likes the U.S."

Okay... and?

"...not all useless idiots"

Agreed, never said they were.

"most of them don't have the skills to get citizenship or the money to move"

If they are really trying to "escape", why not just seek asylum?

Also, I don't recall skills ever being a requirement for citizenship.

"that lack of skills was the only thing in their way?"

Enlighten me! I didn't see anything else, unless "Canadian Bear Patrols" was meant to be taken seriously.

[Guardian G.I.]

G.I., just wondering, you're not actually trying to defend the USSR and/or North Korea are you?

As to horror stories from the USSR, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, East German refugees etc. etc.

As to horror stories from NK, lots of those come from former political prisoners/dissidents, refugees, etc. etc.

If neither of them are "really that totalitarian and oppressive", I don't understand why so many people tried and still do (when it comes to NK) and risk so much to escape, then proceed to say so much about it.

Just look up interviews with refugees, or a few documentaries featuring them.

No, I'm not defending North Korea. I'm questioning the credibility of Western sources describing North Korea, because they tend to contain anti-North Korean propaganda and thus may not universally be true.
I don't mean that they are lying, I mean that they may overexaggerate stuff.

Do you have parts that actually come from mainstream media rather than some obscure booklet?

I don't have access to American newspaper archives, but does the stereotyped depiction of Soviet Union in books and Hollywood movies count? They often describe the Soviet Union as bleak totalitarian state where KGB spies on everyone and sends all suspected dissidents to prison camps.
You may think that works of fiction can't form opinions about other countries in the minds of people, but if it's constantly repeated over and over again...

[Owlbread]

Western media is almost as much of a joke as Eastern media.

[LordSlowpoke]

I think we can agree all media is a joke. All media that's not Best Korean media. Best Korean media is too GLORIOUS to be a joke.

[PatriotSaint]

So, assuming that you've already figured out how messed up NK is without the help of the media, I'm not sure why it matters what the media says.

After all, there are living primary sources. I seriously doubt any of them are exaggerating anything, considering the consistency of the various accounts.

At the very least, they all agree that life in NK was bleak and horrific.

------

Life in the USSR was bleak. People were assassinated by KGB agents and people were sent to camps, masses of the USSR's own citizens were executed.

Millions died.

[Owlbread]

The worst of that was in the bad times though, the USSR that Guardian G.I. is thinking of was quite different. The kind that would let Viktor Tsoy sing without sending him to a gulag or executing him (or at least, for a while).

[PatriotSaint]

The entirety of the USSR was a "bad time".

[Owlbread]

The entirety of the USSR was a "bad time".

Of course, but there were periods that were far worse than others, and to be fair brief periods of decency where people lived with a lot of equality, free healthcare and job security (more so than people in the USA) even if they were still under the iron heel of the politburo. Unfortunately the USSR was such a corrupt and unwieldly beast that those periods didn't last very long.

As the USSR evolved and became more open, towards the end of its life really, it became the USSR that Guardian G.I. speaks of.

[PatriotSaint]

The entirety of the USSR was a "bad time".

Of course, but there were periods that were far worse than others, and to be fair brief periods of decency where people lived with a lot of equality, free healthcare and job security, even if they were still under the iron heel of the politburo.

Yeah, the same way I can enjoy a styrofoam cookie while shackled to a wall, I suppose.