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Author Topic: The Ethics of Eating Animals  (Read 23021 times)

Xantalos

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2013, 03:13:14 am »

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Zangi

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2013, 03:29:09 am »

The concentration of people here that don't eat tasty animal meat is astounding to me.

Personally, I am totally for People Eating Tasty Animals.  I have no compulsion to care about the morale and ethical reasons why I shouldn't, cause it is not even a factor in my decision to eat tasty animals.  Yes, I do know of what 'horrors' that may befall these poor poor animals.  I am not moved.
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10ebbor10

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2013, 04:06:40 am »

Huh. I'm asking because I don't actually have enough background in agriculture to know, but is feeding the current livestock population 50% of our grown grain actually a less efficient use of arable land and water? I'd think (perhaps erroneously. I haven't exactly seen the numbers crunched) we'd be being even less efficient in that manner if we tried to keep the current livestock population while leaving them free range. I'm not even talking keeping the current consumable meat stocks going, just the same population.

'Cause if we were actually trying to maximize use of arable land and water, we'd genocide most other large animals post haste and turn their habitat into farmland, insofar as I'm aware.
While freerange would certainly reduce the supply of meat and would take up large amounts of the space, feeding the animals grain is known to cause certain diseases (which can spread to humans). Then there's also the fact that you need to use ridiculous amounts of fertilizers and water to sustain the grain production. Both are finite. The Mid American Aquifer is drying up, and mineral fertilizer reserves are expected to last less than 30 years.

I define personhood* as a being having preferences as to what happens to it.  As far as I can tell, a plant doesn't care what happens to it and thus fails that test.  Microorganisms may move around and superficially appear to take actions to maintain their survival but I don't see them as actually caring what happens because they don't think or feel anything.  I'm not sure what I feel about small, basic life such as insects; but larger animals are clearly people to me.  They obviously feel emotions and have preferences as to how they are treated, so morally they are on the same level as humans.  I'm still on the side of humans for obvious** pragmatic reasons, but I don't think that humans are any greater in terms of abstract moral worth.

Plants are known to react to dangers and other stuff that happens around them, and they will communicate this information to other plants around them. You just can't see it that well, because most of this communication is purely chemical. Also, plants also have preferences to how they are treated (try putting one in the wrong soil) and will grow differently based on circumstances. It's not because they have trouble making things clear that there's nothing to be seen. In general, plants are though not to be selfaware/persons because they don't have a nervous system.

However, what is pain more than a flag that says that the current action is damaging. In effect, all emotions are simple chemical reactions, which are determined to repeat themselves. Wherether's it's a small bacteria creating proteins, or human thought. Point is: Everything that is decided about this topic is an entirely arbitrary discussion.

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I don't get mad at people that cause unnecessary or useless harm to animals.  Everyone does things for a reason, and in this case its because they believe/have been taught that animals aren't people. All that being said, a lot of the arguments against personhood for animals seems ridiculous to me.
All arguments for personhood can be falsified too. Any line drawn will be a completely arbitrary descision. (Do note that this is not a bad thing, as otherwise we'd have to take everyselfrepeating chemical reaction as a living thing, or stop considering humans to be living things)

I'd like to point out that American meat-raising techniques are not necessarily ubiquitous worldwide. Most beef in Australia is grass-fed, such that grain-fed is a delicacy here in the same way that grass-fed is over there.
Actually, America is pretty much the only country where grain feeding happens on such a large scale. Other places just import soya beans from Brazil and such. (We didn't need those rainforests anyway.)
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Grek

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2013, 04:22:27 am »

You can no longer eat bacon.
Correction! I cannot eat adorable piglets. Which is fine, since I wasn't planning to eat them anyways. The rule is applied on a per situation basis, not on a per species or even per animal basis. In order to not be eaten, things must convince me to not eat them every time I consider eating them. A single failure results in devouring; such is the harshness of Grek's thirst for breakfast.

Also, 10ebbor10: I made a thread years ago you might get a kick out of: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97346.msg2817376#msg2817376
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Scoops Novel

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2013, 08:51:30 am »

The concentration of people here that don't eat tasty animal meat is astounding to me.

Personally, I am totally for People Eating Tasty Animals.  I have no compulsion to care about the morale and ethical reasons why I shouldn't, cause it is not even a factor in my decision to eat tasty animals.  Yes, I do know of what 'horrors' that may befall these poor poor animals.  I am not moved.

How about People eating dead People? Just wondering, omnivore here. By not moved, do you mean you don't find it a good reason not to eat meat, or not a good reason to farm them differently? If so, does kicking the dog not work for you? Please enlighten me.

I usually tend to judge all life based upon its individual actions and intentions, rather than the form it happens to take, and thus generally don't see any entity as inherently more valuable than any other. Because of this, whenever I must fulfill my mortal need for sustenance, I'm pretty much willing to consume whatever is available to me; be it plant, insect, animal, human, or whatever.

That being said, I stand strongly against the unnecessary suffering of any life form, and strive to prevent it from occurring whenever & wherever I am able.

That's a non-sequitur, to be honest. Presumably go going via the least pain-induced, you'd focus on the less intelligent forms of life. It doesn't work in a worth vs value sense, either. If you were guaranteed the same amount of suffering would result from eating a fly or a baby, you would choose the fly. Part of this is because you're human and as such can't be entirely neutral, but i doubt that would be the prime factor.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 09:05:25 am by Novel »
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DJ

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2013, 09:13:16 am »

Cannibalism is a great way to get a prion disease.

Anyway, how do you all feel about hunting? It's the opposite of factory farming. And the animal would never have died of old age in the wild anyway, wolves would get it long before that. If anything, a gun is a more humane way to go than wolf jaws. But each deer you take home is one wolf family going hungry. Is it ethical to compete against wolves for food?
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Scoops Novel

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2013, 09:17:40 am »

Ah, thanks for reminding me. Now that i remember it, it can cause inherited problems too apparently, at least in the case of an island somewhere. I'm not one for hunting, as said factory is going to be producing food you could be eating, or well very well go to waste besides. I dislike the mindset people go into it with as well. It's never about the meal.
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misko27

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2013, 10:12:29 am »

I can still eat all the bacon I want after seeing that picture.

The primary reason being I'm hungry and poor and meat is available and cheap. Those are powerful reasons. I cannot afford to have such principles.

Regardless I personally do not choose to give everything sentience. Not many things have sentience, that's special. Hell, not even babies have sentience. And there are degrees anyway, one has to draw a line.
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Naryar

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2013, 10:22:57 am »

I am an omnivore by nature and I accept it. Therefore, eating meat is not a problem at all. Besides, animal products contain nutrients that are not in plants and that are useful to us.

also, feeling empathy towards creatures that are unable of it is anormal. I am however mostly OK with vegetarians that use the "meat uses far more energy than plant matter to be done" argument.

Human flesh also is OK to eat, as long as you're not commiting (directly or indirectly) murder. This murder rule is invalid in one single exception : if you really have no other option than to kill someone and eat him to survive, but this is of course an extreme case and if you do in fact kill someone to eat him when you had other options, you just committed a seriously evil act.

I do however believe that if we are to kill or maim an animal, it is best to minimize suffering, and I generally believe you have only three valid reasons to kill an animal : because you want to eat it, because you want to use it for !!science!! and because it opposes you.

maybe i have a bit more but I can't find anything else.

Killing for sport only is pretty evil in my books. If you do both hunt for sport and to eat the animal, it is fine however.

lordcooper

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2013, 10:26:33 am »

I was brought up vegetarian and taught that it was immoral to kill and eat animals. Having struggled with the question on and off I still don't eat meat, but it's not for the exact same reasons any more. These days, besides all the ecological arguments, I don't eat meat because I don't want to kill or cause any suffering if I don't have to; If there is a viable, affordable alternative then I'll take it. Funnily enough this includes cannibalism, but only when necessary.

Same here, apart from the struggling with it thing.  It disgusts me when other people eat meat, but I try not to let it affect my actions because this might just be an irrational prejudice and those things suck.
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Zangi

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2013, 12:41:04 pm »

The concentration of people here that don't eat tasty animal meat is astounding to me.

Personally, I am totally for People Eating Tasty Animals.  I have no compulsion to care about the morale and ethical reasons why I shouldn't, cause it is not even a factor in my decision to eat tasty animals.  Yes, I do know of what 'horrors' that may befall these poor poor animals.  I am not moved.

How about People eating dead People? Just wondering, omnivore here. By not moved, do you mean you don't find it a good reason not to eat meat, or not a good reason to farm them differently? If so, does kicking the dog not work for you? Please enlighten me.
Cannibalism: Sure, go ahead, face the consequences of it.
My monkeysphere does not extend to critters that are born and raised to be food.  Nor the wildlife that is hunted for food.
As long as it is not 'my' dog.  Of course, if I dislike the person themself, it would be pretty easy to get them into trouble...
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Skyrunner

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2013, 12:58:47 pm »

While even by simple tropism levels, vegetarianism is much more efficient (ten times), and while animals are mistreated, I eat meat. o_O
It's due to two things: one, where I live, meat is rare and a delicacy. Can't get enough of it. >.>
Two, it's tasty. Related to number one. Meat has a certain taste, flavor, and texture that is unique, as all foods are.

Tropisms:
Level one, plants. Biomass 100%
Level two, cows. Biomass 10%
Level three, humans. Biomass 1%.
Level one, plants. Biomass 100%
Level two, humans. Biomass 10%.
Skipping the cow stage lets us have ten times the efficiency, as biomass decreases by 90% each time you go up a level.
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Skyrunner

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2013, 01:00:08 pm »

Double!
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penguinofhonor

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2013, 01:14:40 pm »

.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 10:49:18 pm by penguinofhonor »
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DJ

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Re: The Ethics of Eating Animals
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2013, 02:28:36 pm »

You guys do realize that giving up electricity and other modern conveniences would do a lot more for the environment than giving up meat?
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