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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1774230 times)

smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18555 on: July 08, 2015, 12:49:06 pm »

I wonder what they had to 'nuke from orbit'? Apparently whatever it was, it was serious or critical enough to cause problems with the NYSE.
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Erkki

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18556 on: July 08, 2015, 01:11:03 pm »

Greece + China --> OMX Helsinki has fallen ~4% during the last week, although climbed a bit today. I need to monitor my few stocks' prices now more often.
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RedKing

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18557 on: July 08, 2015, 01:15:42 pm »

RK this is just the beginning and it's already made tens of millions of Chinese poorer. And this is the beginning. On a 1 year time frame all but 8% of the year's gains have been wiped out and that number is still decreasing.
Quote
"The ideal situation would be several years of a steady bull market to cover the restructuring phase," Societe Generale's Yao Wei wrote in a recent note. "Conversely, the worst-case scenario would be a stock-market crash before restructuring has even begun."
The ripples this will cause across the world will strike hard like America. Europe is in for interesting times.

That article is misleading, inaccurate and whoever does their math should be fired. Yes, it's wiped out a chunk of gains for the year. But when those gains were over 150% to begin with, even a chunk is pretty damn impressive. Let's do the math:

On 7/8/14, the Shanghai index was at 2064.02.
As of the moment I googled it a little while ago, the index was currently at 3507.19. That's a one-year gain of nearly 70%. You won't find that kind of performance in ANY Western stock market, even in boom years (with an important exception, but more on that in a second)

The 52-week high for the Shanghai is 5178.19. Which was 151% gain. So at most, it's currently wiped out around 54% of the YTD gain. No idea where they get this "all but 8%" bullshit.


Now, as to the more serious point -- that this isn't institutional investors getting screwed, it's mom-and-pop investors (or more commonly, young professionals just dipping into the market). Gee, where I have heard that before....oh yeah, the dot-com bubble. Yes, it sucks for those folks. But a speculative bubble is completely unsustainable, and the Chinese bubble has outpaced all but the most irrational moments of the dot-com bubble in terms of growth. It sucked for people who lost money in the dot-com bubble too. But that's what happens when you buy Pets.com at $11/share, when the company NEVER TURNED A PROFIT.

I hate to sound like the heartless evil capitalist here, but -- you pays your money, you takes your chances. This isn't manipulation or ethical wrongdoing like the Wall Street crash, this is the laws of economics asserting themselves. The vast majority of these "gains" were hot air and dreams, and they're evaporating.


Now, it does suck for the Chinese government in that a lot of retail investors are going to be gun-shy now and hesitant to get back into the market, just as American retail investors were spooked for most of the 2000's (and still are, to some extent). But that's not always a bad thing. Retail investors are an inherently destabilizing factor -- they don't do good research, they're more easily manipulated, and they're panicky. All of that leads to a more volatile market. What the PRC needs to do is encourage the growth of "investment collectives", sort of like investment clubs here, where people would pool their money and let someone who actually understands the market do the investing. This way they tap into that growing consumer wealth while ameliorating some of the tendency towards bubbles.

And again, the ripple effect is NOT going to be huge. Foreign investment in Chinese markets is low because of regulatory barriers. Chinese consumers, in return, are not bigtime investors outside of China. The only real contagion link could be large Chinese institutional investors who are also active abroad, but I don't think they're going to be hammered all that bad. The other possible contagion link is simply fear -- Western investors see poorly-written stories like this one, go "OH NOES CHINA IS GOING BROKE" and panic and convert all their stocks into gold, ammunition and cans of baked beans.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18558 on: July 08, 2015, 02:14:47 pm »

First off, converting your money into cans of baked beans is a great idea; those are fucking delicious - money is not delicious. Maybe you shouldn't convert all of your money into baked beans at once, but still. Foreign investment in China exceeded foreign investment in the USA in January.

penguinofhonor

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18559 on: July 08, 2015, 02:32:43 pm »

Now, as to the more serious point -- that this isn't institutional investors getting screwed, it's mom-and-pop investors (or more commonly, young professionals just dipping into the market). Gee, where I have heard that before....oh yeah, the dot-com bubble. Yes, it sucks for those folks. But a speculative bubble is completely unsustainable, and the Chinese bubble has outpaced all but the most irrational moments of the dot-com bubble in terms of growth. It sucked for people who lost money in the dot-com bubble too. But that's what happens when you buy Pets.com at $11/share, when the company NEVER TURNED A PROFIT.

I hate to sound like the heartless evil capitalist here, but -- you pays your money, you takes your chances. This isn't manipulation or ethical wrongdoing like the Wall Street crash, this is the laws of economics asserting themselves. The vast majority of these "gains" were hot air and dreams, and they're evaporating.

Wasn't the Wall Street crash based on a ton of people taking out loans they couldn't repay? I definitely heard people blaming it on average homeowners misusing their money. How is this situation different? I know US banks did some shady financial fiddling with the unreliable debt - I guess nothing like that has been going on in China?
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Frumple

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18560 on: July 08, 2015, 02:42:27 pm »

That's th'housing bubble, poh, not the dot-com one. Dot-com came earlier, caused by different things, iirc.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18561 on: July 08, 2015, 02:55:37 pm »

Oh, I thought he had switched topics by the second paragraph there.
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RedKing

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18562 on: July 08, 2015, 03:16:02 pm »

First off, converting your money into cans of baked beans is a great idea; those are fucking delicious - money is not delicious. Maybe you shouldn't convert all of your money into baked beans at once, but still. Foreign investment in China exceeded foreign investment in the USA in January.
FDI != stock investing.

FDI is foreign companies (or venture capitalists) sinking money into partial ownership of a company. Which can take place through a stock purchase, but there are other avenues. More to the point, it's not speculative. You don't buy a company to flip the stock and make a quick buck, you buy it use its assets/markets/brand/technology to make MORE money. Some of that FDI contributed to the stock rise, no doubt, but that's the part that's SUPPOSED to. Which, based on the numbers I'm seeing thrown around, would have accounted for roughly 4% of the total stock market gain, if every bit of that FDI was stock purchases on the Shanghai.

The vast majority of that bubble is Chinese-made and Chinese-owned. Which just underscores the tremendous economic power of the Chinese and why reforms in China have to happen SLOWLY. The sheer size of the population is a force-multiplier for all kinds of effects, good and bad. Chinese fads can make or break entire industries and foreign economies without ever intending to.

Case in point: Chinese milk consumption. One of the lowest rates in the world, milk consumption per capita has been steadily rising since 2000, from about 11kg per year to about 25kg per year by 2008 (by contrast, the US rate was 253kg per year in 2007. Finland tops the world, at 361kg per Finn per year. And yet still find room to drink all that beer and vodka....) ;)

But despite that modest increase -- the equivalent of an extra 1.2 ounces of milk a day -- the net effect was to revitalize the dairy industry in several countries, including the US (where milk consumption has been on the wane for 30+ years, such that US milk consumption is half of what it was 30 years ago). Coupled with Chinese distrust of their own domestic milk production (thanks to several high-profile incidents of melanine poisoning), milk exporters are seeing record numbers.

And all this because milk is seen as a healthy food and a sign of affluence in Chinese culture.


But this is getting a bit off-topic. I'll have to revive my East Asian politics thread and cross-post this over there so the Euros can have their thread and get back to renaming souvlaki "Freedom Kebabs" or something....
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18563 on: July 08, 2015, 03:21:37 pm »

Ok, you've convinced me that the Chinese stock market crash could be localized to China and Southeast Asia. What would it take to increase the chance of this turning into a fully-fledged global meltdown?
Purely for research purposes of course

RedKing

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18564 on: July 08, 2015, 03:27:32 pm »

I'll answer that over in the East Asia thread.
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notquitethere

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18565 on: July 08, 2015, 03:45:19 pm »

I don't see a whole lot of discussion about the deeply regressive Psychoactive Substances Bill currently going through the House of Lord (UK).

With this bill they aim to make an offence the knowing creation and distribution of every psychoactive substance (except for a list including coffee, booze etc.).

Need I begin to explain everything that is absurd with this or are we all agreed here?
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Graknorke

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18566 on: July 08, 2015, 03:46:30 pm »

No, it's pretty dumb. But what can you do about it. Conservative majority can do what they want.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18567 on: July 08, 2015, 03:46:55 pm »

Repressive yeah, but what is so absurd about it? If you intend to clamp on designer drugs, it's pretty much the only way to do it.
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Graknorke

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18568 on: July 08, 2015, 03:49:26 pm »

Plenty of things are psychoactive substances but only as a tangent to what it's intended to do. One of the things that probably sparked this was people finding that out about about something like a plant fertiliser a few years ago.
Much legal substance abuse ensued and a few of people died, then the government made it illegal.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 03:52:05 pm by Graknorke »
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notquitethere

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #18569 on: July 08, 2015, 03:51:36 pm »

Repressive yeah, but what is so absurd about it? If you intend to clamp on designer drugs, it's pretty much the only way to do it.
No clamping down was necessary. It's already a crime to supply a substance for consumption that you know to be harmful. If the courts can prove genuine harm then prosecute dealers of genuinely harmful substances as poisoners.

What this legislation will do is needlessly criminalise people, hinder research and make it harder for people to cleanse the doors of perception.
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