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[scrdest]

Owlbread, you need to realize that in Russia, death does not hold the same place as in Europe, probably due to just how many Russians died during the previous century, in WW1, in WW2, in famines, in gulags, in 90s economical crisis...
If we were commemorating all mass deaths that have happened during 20th century, we would be commemorating them almost every day. Thus, we don't commemorate mass deaths. And Chechens won't do that, too, while we're here. They're not an exception.

Strange. In Ukraine we do care about national tragedies of XXth century and have nationwide commemorations.

That's not strange if you consider that your current country was literally built on "defying the will of those evil Russians/Soviets". A difference on the central unifying themes of countries creates a different national consciousness.

No, it wasn't. It was built despite the will of said Evil Russians/Soviets. Not being partial to said will is just a selection pressure to continue existing, because certain Evil Russians/Soviets maintain ambitions of integrating it into the territory of rebuilt Evil Russian/Soviet Evil Empire/Union/Federation. Of Evil. Because GRORIOUS ^_evil MOTHER RUSSIA MUST HAS REBUILT!

[Sergarr]

Owlbread, you need to realize that in Russia, death does not hold the same place as in Europe, probably due to just how many Russians died during the previous century, in WW1, in WW2, in famines, in gulags, in 90s economical crisis...
If we were commemorating all mass deaths that have happened during 20th century, we would be commemorating them almost every day. Thus, we don't commemorate mass deaths. And Chechens won't do that, too, while we're here. They're not an exception.

Strange. In Ukraine we do care about national tragedies of XXth century and have nationwide commemorations.

That's not strange if you consider that your current country was literally built on "defying the will of those evil Russians/Soviets". A difference on the central unifying themes of countries creates a different national consciousness.

No, it wasn't. It was built despite the will of said Evil Russians/Soviets. Not being partial to said will is just a selection pressure to continue existing, because certain Evil Russians/Soviets maintain ambitions of integrating it into the territory of rebuilt Evil Russian/Soviet Evil Empire/Union/Federation. Of Evil. Because GRORIOUS ^_evil MOTHER RUSSIA MUST HAS REBUILT!

Apparently, "integrating a country into Russia" is equal to "make you stop existing".

I didn't know that being in Russia automatically makes you dead.

[LordSlowpoke]

it's a logical extension of the part where russians are apparently not people

you turn russian, you stop being a person, therefore you're dead vOv

[Loud Whispers]

AND THEN JOHN WAS THE RUSSIANS

[scrdest]

Apparently, "integrating a country into Russia" is equal to "make you stop existing".

I didn't know that being in Russia automatically makes you dead.

You stop existing as a state. Not an inherent feature of being integrated into another country, but Russia in particular has a bit of a record of making sure the subjugated countries turn into Russia 2: Funny Accent Edition. And it's not like certain Russian politicians denied the very existence of Ukrainians as a separate nationality, right?

And your post said 'current country', not 'national identity' or whatever, so you're being deliberately obtuse if you're trying to twist my words into what LSP and LW are joking about.

[mainiac]

I dunno, why don't you ask the Middle East and Central Asia which period has been a better deal for them?

Yeah the middle east is mired in civil war an terrorism unlike in the 90s where the middle east was mired in civil war an terrorism.

Meanwhile quality of life in Asia and Latin America has skyrocketed and Africa just experienced the best decade it has ever known.

Which could quickly be nullified if China decides to make shit get real in the South China Sea.

Yeah who cares that people's lives have improved immensely, they might get worse so it doesn't count.

Ahh, ever the passive-aggressive optimist...

People say things that are the exact opposite of true and I correct them...

[Sergarr]

You stop existing as a state. Not an inherent feature of being integrated into another country, but Russia in particular has a bit of a record of making sure the subjugated countries turn into Russia 2: Funny Accent Edition.

That's your problem, of not being discern between various states in Russia. They're different from each other, not big different but different nonetheless. You just didn't notice because you didn't live there.

I didn't live in USA, so all ex-Confederation states there are the same "America 2: Funny Accent Edition" to me, too. But of course you'll say that "this is totally different", right?

And it's not like certain Russian politicians denied the very existence of Ukrainians as a separate nationality, right?

Certain Britain politicians have said that not breaking laws should not protect you from being punished by the government. If we start to nitpick, you will find nutjobs like that in any - ANY - country.

And your post said 'current country', not 'national identity' or whatever, so you're being deliberately obtuse if you're trying to twist my words into what LSP and LW are joking about.

I was kind of poking at your "selective pressure" part of the comment. Countries are not living things, they can't have "selective pressure" because they do not reproduce.

[scrdest]

You stop existing as a state. Not an inherent feature of being integrated into another country, but Russia in particular has a bit of a record of making sure the subjugated countries turn into Russia 2: Funny Accent Edition.

That's your problem, of not being discern between various states in Russia. They're different from each other, not big different but different nonetheless. You just didn't notice because you didn't live there.

I didn't live in USA, so all ex-Confederation states there are the same "America 2: Funny Accent Edition" to me, too. But of course you'll say that "this is totally different", right?

They are not America 2. They are America 1. There never was a separate America. Hell, Confederation's full name is Confederate States of America. The difference between Texas and New Hampshire is as irrelevant as the differences between Moscow and Sankt Petersburg, whereas the difference between Russia and Ukraine is like USA and Canada - somewhat similar culturally at a glance, but only the fringe would want to see the former invade the latter.

And it's not like certain Russian politicians denied the very existence of Ukrainians as a separate nationality, right?

Certain Britain politicians have said that not breaking laws should not protect you from being punished by the government. If we start to nitpick, you will find nutjobs like that in any - ANY - country.

And Britain is currently implementing ridiculous laws. Tu quoque is not a valid defense.

And your post said 'current country', not 'national identity' or whatever, so you're being deliberately obtuse if you're trying to twist my words into what LSP and LW are joking about.

I was kind of poking at your "selective pressure" part of the comment. Countries are not living things, they can't have "selective pressure" because they do not reproduce.

[/quote]
What's that thing you hu-mans call a 'figure of speech'?

[Sergarr]

They are not America 2. They are America 1. There never was a separate America. Hell, Confederation's full name is Confederate States of America.

Don't act as if you didn't understand what I meant. They were in a different country because they seceded from your country. Your country then has subjugated their country with force. They stopped existing as a state. Then your country made sure that their country got turned into Your Country 2: Funny Accent Edition. Hell you even did that with all those Native American tribes, too!

How's that different than what Russia did to other countries? Oh - that's right, it's different because Confederation and all those Native Americans never got another chance to secede (unlike all those ex-Soviet republics), because Russia is not as good at exterminating local dissenting population as USA.

After all, how many native people there are in Russia, and how many - in USA? Hell, to further drive the point, compare Soviet Union, the embodiment of subjugation of local dissenting population, under Stalin, the person who deported Chechens and killed millions of people, to USA, the embodiment of freedom and democracy, in terms of percentage of natives among total population.

And Britain is currently implementing ridiculous laws. Tu quoque is not a valid defense.

How about American politicians? You know, the ones that are saying that earth was created 6 thousand years ago and that climate change is not a thing?

Every country has nutjobs in politics. Can't evaluate a country based on them. Poisoning the well is not a valid attack.

P.S.

But of course you'll say that "this is totally different", right?

[Erkki]

Dunno, despite being one of the first to encounter Europeans in Northern America, the continuous wars for centuries, missionaries, famines and the various often lethal to the natives illnesses the Six Nations still exist and theres more people identifying themselves Iroquois than ever before.

Also, Confederacy was not exactly a sovereign nation with its own culture, language or other distinctive identity before the war began. It was first and foremost a civil war, where to the best of my knowledge any way the south's political and business elite was unwilling to give up slavery. Sure there were other disagreements as well. We need an American to tell how small or large the cultural differences between South and North were exactly,.

[mainiac]

Sergar left out no details. The political motivations of both the union and confederacy were up explored.l

[scrdest]

Don't act as if you didn't understand what I meant. They were in a different country because they seceded from your country. Your country then has subjugated their country with force. They stopped existing as a state. Then your country made sure that their country got turned into Your Country 2: Funny Accent Edition. Hell you even did that with all those Native American tribes, too!

How's that different than what Russia did to other countries? Oh - that's right, it's different because Confederation and all those Native Americans never got another chance to secede (unlike all those ex-Soviet republics), because Russia is not as good at exterminating local dissenting population as USA.

After all, how many native people there are in Russia, and how many - in USA? Hell, to further drive the point, compare Soviet Union, the embodiment of subjugation of local dissenting population, under Stalin, the person who deported Chechens and killed millions of people, to USA, the embodiment of freedom and democracy, in terms of percentage of natives among total population.

Feel free to point out where, exactly, I'm writing apologetics for USA's history. I'm fairly sure I never wrote that anywhere. Otherwise, another tu quoque. And hell, you even admitted subjugation by Russia equals death of a statehood yourself!

CSA never had a claim to being a separate nation. As the part 'of America' indicates, really. It was essentially a rebellion with a statelike chain of command. There was never such thing as a Confederate nationalism. There were differences in culture, but you'd find the same degrees of difference within both USA and CSA.

Ukraine, meanwhile, has had its own national identity, formed by a variety of historical factors. It didn't just happen overnight over a bunch of random Soviet provinces deciding they're through with that shit. Poland is an apt analogy here, considering it has also been nommed by the Russian Empire for over a century and underwent intensive Russification attempts. If you want to be consistent, then, it, too, is not a state currently and should immediately surrender to the power of Putin riding a bear.

Also, I hope you are using 'you' as a purely rhetorical pronoun, otherwise I'll be endlessly amused and at least slightly flattered.

And Britain is currently implementing ridiculous laws. Tu quoque is not a valid defense.

How about American politicians? You know, the ones that are saying that earth was created 6 thousand years ago and that climate change is not a thing?

Every country has nutjobs in politics. Can't evaluate a country based on them. Poisoning the well is not a valid attack.

What the hell do YECs have to do with anything? Did you not read the part of the post you are replying to? 'So do you' is not something that absolves you from doing anything.

Poisoning the well is a fallacy because it attempts to refute a logical point with a character attack - Hitler was vegetarian and an opponent of animal cruelty, therefore if you also avoid eating meat and/or not beat your pets daily you are in favor of genocide.

What is not a fallacy is proposing that a country A ran by people who deny the existence of another country B, if A eats up B territorially, will attempt to act in accord to their belief that sentiments of belonging to nation B should be eliminated as incorrect.

[Sergarr]

Okay, returning to the original post (now with less "NO YOU"):

Russia in particular has a bit of a record of making sure the subjugated countries turn into Russia 2: Funny Accent Edition. And it's not like certain Russian politicians denied the very existence of Ukrainians as a separate nationality, right?

And your post said 'current country', not 'national identity' or whatever, so you're being deliberately obtuse if you're trying to twist my words into what LSP and LW are joking about.

I noticed that you didn't give any examples of countries that got turned into Russia 2: Funny Accent Edition. I wonder which countries they may be, because I'm pretty sure that all countries that got subjugated by Russia actually retained their national identity and most of them ultimately retained their independence as well, too.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I noticed that you didn't give any examples of countries that got turned into Russia 2: Funny Accent Edition. I wonder which countries they may be, because I'm pretty sure that all countries that got subjugated by Russia actually retained their national identity and most of them ultimately retained their independence as well, too.

Belarus is very close to being "Russia: funny accent edition" even if local language and culture is not 100% dead yet. Belarussian Smolensk is 100% Russian now.

 Same can be said about former Ukrainian land: Kursk, Voronezh, Taganrog, Kuban... All were Ukrainian but not anymore.

Many nations of Russian federation have <100 000 population exactly because rest of them are Russians with funny accent now

Why you failed to finish the job? Mostly because you had no enough time. Century or two and that would be finished/

[Sergarr]

That's not "turning into Russia 2: Funny Accent Edition", though. That's more like that "melting pot" kind of thing that some Americans love to talk about. There are a lot of different sub-cultures under a single unifying label of "Russian", it's not like there are some "how you should behave if you're a Russian" guidelines that define a Canonic Russian Culture. There just isn't one, at this point, after 15-16th century at least. Russia is way too big and diverse for that to be a thing.