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[MetalRocks]

Catalan is not opressed, for that is sure. Leonese? What is Leonese?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have plenty of examples of nazis separatists in Catalonia. It is not difficult as all those ideologies are nationalists and victimists. Today, most of the Spanish francoists in Catalonia are separatists (they entered the right-winged separatist CIU).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Loud Whispers]

Even Israel has neonazis m8, I think it's a bit unfair to single out a skinhead and say they represent an entire movement (unless you got some evidence to show that Catalonians harbour a significant number of nazis).

[MetalRocks]

Even Israel has neonazis m8, I think it's a bit unfair to single out a skinhead and say they represent an entire movement (unless you got some evidence to show that Catalonians harbour a significant number of nazis).

No, I am not saying all the separatists in Catalonia are nazis. But I am saying they have a similar ideology (Catalan nationalism is in many ways a bad copy of the nazism: nationalism and victimism, control of the media and indoctrination in the schools, etc.). And I am saying also that many francoist Spanish nationalists became Catalan nationalists when Franco died (and today are separatists).

[ChairmanPoo]

Before  throwing around accusations of indoctrination, perhaps you should take a long look in your mirror, hmm?

[MetalRocks]

And yet again, a dissenting group somehow turns into accusations of them all being Neo-nazis. First Ukraine, now Catalonia; soon, Scotland and Venice.

Also there is a growing group of them that claim other regions of Spain, the south of France, part of Italy, etc. as being part of their "empire". Just because those regions talk a language similar to the Catalan and those territories were owned once by the Crown of Aragon (not by the Crown of Catalonia that never existed). They are called Pancatalanists. Thats another similarity with the nazism, the expansionism. And the history-fiction is another (inventing the history).

[MetalRocks]

That's not the whole of people who want an independent Catalonia, though.

No. That is only a growing group of them.

[towerdude]

And yet again, a dissenting group somehow turns into accusations of them all being Neo-nazis. First Ukraine, now Catalonia; soon, Scotland and Venice.

Yep, it was a spectacular show, how Cameron f***ed over Scotland, and used his scaremonger Alistair Darling to incite massive backpedaling from Scots. Lol, when they asked them on the street and all of them said, "I vote no, because, you know... the nazis." "Nationalism is bad, just look at nazi germany." Etc.

They were brainwashed to an extent where they though that self-determination and self-government is nazism. Boy Ghandi was such a huge nazi.

They don't even see that the politicts of Westminster are what we could consider some kind of misguided nationalism towards a non-existing English mega-state.

It didn't helped either that Salmond entangled himself with the sterling mantra.

[MetalRocks]

And yet again, a dissenting group somehow turns into accusations of them all being Neo-nazis. First Ukraine, now Catalonia; soon, Scotland and Venice.

Yep, it was a spectacular show, how Cameron f***ed over Scotland, and used his scaremonger Alistair Darling to incite massive backpedaling from Scots. Lol, when they asked them on the street and all of them said, "I vote no, because, you know... the nazis." "Nationalism is bad, just look at nazi germany." Etc.

They were brainwashed to an extent where they though that self-determination and self-government is nazism. Boy Ghandi was such a huge nazi.

They don't even see that the politicts of Westminster are what we could consider some kind of misguided nationalism towards a non-existing English mega-state.

It didn't helped either that Salmond entangled himself with the sterling mantra.

While the rest of Spain was attracting hispanoamerican inmigration because they are easier to integrate (they talk Spanish and have almost the same culture), Catalonia was attracting muslims inmigrants because the separatist government of Catalonia did not want them to talk in Spanish. They wanted them to learn only Catalan and to be separatists.
Today, Catalonia is the Spanish region with the highest risk (with difference) of a yihadist terrorist attack.

[towerdude]

Understandable. These sort of exploitive-of-independence-movement groups pop up all the time. My earlier remark about neo-Nazi Scots and Venetians wasn't entirely facetious, though I doubt necessarily all of them would be of that particular nature.

Yeah, yeah.

But don't forget that most of these people were opressed for a VERY long time, most even today. Language is very important, because it fundamentally sets our thinking process. And that's basically who you are.

You could get killed in France even after WW2, if they caught you speaking Occitan.

I think we should weight the "threat" poset by these seperatist "nazis", against the past and present actions of governments everywhere to marginalize, assimilate and eradicate minorities.

These don't have to be actually physical. You could claim that nobody is opressed in Europe, because we don't have squads marching the streets enforcing English, French etc.

But the subtle policies are still there, they changed the tools not the intent.

Using massive medi campaing is such a tool for example to convince people that it useless to teach or learn the languages of their ancestors.

I could go on: workplace rules, school funding (or lack of), no public services, etc.

One or two road signs in Breton won't save the culture, but we sure as hell show it to the world how tolerant we are.

[SirQuiamus]

That's not the whole of people who want an independent Catalonia, though.

No. That is only a growing group of them.

Growing by two people per year?

I just read the wiki article on Països Catalans, and it looks like that ideology is currently in the margins, if not on the absolute fringe.

[towerdude]

And yet again, a dissenting group somehow turns into accusations of them all being Neo-nazis. First Ukraine, now Catalonia; soon, Scotland and Venice.

Yep, it was a spectacular show, how Cameron f***ed over Scotland, and used his scaremonger Alistair Darling to incite massive backpedaling from Scots. Lol, when they asked them on the street and all of them said, "I vote no, because, you know... the nazis." "Nationalism is bad, just look at nazi germany." Etc.

They were brainwashed to an extent where they though that self-determination and self-government is nazism. Boy Ghandi was such a huge nazi.

They don't even see that the politicts of Westminster are what we could consider some kind of misguided nationalism towards a non-existing English mega-state.

It didn't helped either that Salmond entangled himself with the sterling mantra.

While the rest of Spain was attracting hispanoamerican inmigration because they are easier to integrate (they talk Spanish and have almost the same culture), Catalonia was attracting muslims inmigrants because the separatist government of Catalonia did not want them to talk in Spanish. They wanted them to learn only Catalan and to be separatists.
Today, Catalonia is the Spanish region with the highest risk (with difference) of a yihadist terrorist attack.

Look, no matter how hard you try, some bad choices of a government, don't invalidate the whole concept of Catalan, Galician or Basque independence.

Minorities need seperate countries to flourish, there is documented evidence that after sufficient protection, and lack of restriction from a stronger external culture, native cultures start to redevelop and many people switch back to use their native tongue in every aspect of life.

Scientific and other publishings increase, and we have a renessaince.

You just want to keep Greater Spain togeather, why are you clinging to those territories that much, if it is inhabited by people you don't like?

Spain would still have 80% of its territory because Aragonese and Leonese died out.

[MetalRocks]

That's not the whole of people who want an independent Catalonia, though.

No. That is only a growing group of them.

Growing by two people per year?

I just read the wiki article on Països Catalans, and it looks like that ideology is currently in the margins, if not on the absolute fringe.

Being so that the Catalan separatist government directly controls some of the TV channels and newspapers of Catalonia, and subsidizes the rest to spread their ideas; Being so that they subsidize historians to demonstrate the most absurd things (for example: they claim "Don Quixote", the most famous Spanish book is only a translation from the original, that was writen in Catalan and lost, and its writer according to them was Catalan, when it is well known he wasn't, and he lived and die far away from Catalonia). Being so they claim they were a kingdom and even an empire, I would say they are growing by 100,000 a year? 200,000?
ERC, the second most voted party in Catalonia has this ideology. CUP is another one. Other separatist parties do not say it openly, but they do not reject it eather.

[Owlbread]

Yes MetalRocks, it is clear that the Catalans must remain under Spanish rule to prevent Nazi Catalans from starting the Fourth Reich and annexing Sicily.

[MetalRocks]

Yes MetalRocks, it is clear that the Catalans must remain under Spanish rule to prevent Nazi Catalans from starting the Fourth Reich and annexing Sicily.

Yeah. A threat of the Catalan separatists to the Italian or French sovereignity of their territories would be as absurd as a threat of the Catalan separatists to the Spanish sovereignity of its territory. I agree, they are pretty much irrational anti-democratic lunatics with no idea of history.

[Owlbread]

Yeah. A threat of the Catalan separatists to the Italian or French sovereignity of their territories would be as absurd as a threat of the Catalan separatists to the Spanish sovereignity of its territory. I agree, they are pretty much irrational anti-democratic lunatics with no idea of history.

I was being sarcastic. I actually agree with the ideology, but only to the extent that countries influenced by Catalan culture/language e.g. the Balearics, Valencia, Andorra and so on could establish a kind of Catalan Council, like the Scandinavians (Swedish, Norwegians, Danes etc) have the Nordic Council.