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[martinuzz]

The only 'torch march' that I can think of (or have a mental image of) is a rioting (or otherwise angry) mob with torches and pitchforks.

The only torch march that I know of is the Torch March Against Racism, which is organised every year in our city. I never heard of a negative association with torch marches. It's not a thing associated with nazism at all here. It's a anti-rascism / peace thing over here.

[Sinistar]

I think the torch marches Comrade P. was referring to is those specific marches organized by some right(-leaning) groups in Ukraine.

[reality.auditor]

AAAND you just called Germany insecure

It is. Ever checked sorry state of German military? Especially considering current danger from Russia? I consider Germany and it's current leadership as weak and pathetic. Merkel von Ribbentrop de Chamberlain proves this.

EU in general should pull itself together. I like it and it's ideas, but it seems EU is incapable to work under stressful, pre-war situation and can only think about gas and money to make with Russia, especially older members of EU. I can just imagine what shit would happen if Russia would invade Baltic states (under some moronic pretext, as usual) or something. They would run around like chickens without heads.

My only consolation is that my country is one of few that treats whole situation seriously and is incerasing spending on military. To 2% minimum required by NATO. Shame it is still miniscule in comparison to growing amout of money spent by Russia on military, while cutting everything else (only exception is social) due to fall of ruble and oil prices. It is almost like Russia is preparing for war.

It never was a good idea to ban a part of your history, at least to my knowledge.

There is difference between having something as part of it's history and revenerating it as something awesome. Communism was and is murderous loony ideology (estimated body count around 100 mil dead worldwide), not anything awesome.

Besides, why would we ban Stalin's statues?

Because he is one of the most (if not most) genocidal dictators in history of mankind? I know you russians love him and I consider this utterly insane (and telling a lot). That kind of stance contributes to my opinion of Russians, that - as you can guess - is not very flattering.

He took a country where 90% of people lived in complete shit and had close-to-zero chances to become living in not-shit and turned it into a country where about 50% of people lived in less shit and had real chances to become living in not-shit.

This would be more convincing if you could prove that under different system or ruler situation would be still shit or no better. Ever heard about opportunity cost?

[Sergarr]

AAAND you just called Germany insecure

It is. Ever checked sorry state of German military? Especially considering current danger from Russia? I consider Germany and it's current leadership as weak and pathetic. Merkel von Ribbentrop de Chamberlain proves this.

EU in general should pull itself together. I like it and it's ideas, but it seems EU is incapable to work under stressful, pre-war situation and can only think about gas and money to make with Russia, especially older members of EU. I can just imagine what shit would happen if Russia would invade Baltic states (under some moronic pretext, as usual) or something. They would run around like chickens without heads.

My only consolation is that my country is one of few that treats whole situation seriously and is incerasing spending on military. To 2% minimum required by NATO. Shame it is still miniscule in comparison to growing amout of money spent by Russia on military, while cutting everything else (only exception is social) due to fall of ruble and oil prices. It is almost like Russia is preparing for war.

So, tell me how Russia will invade Baltic states which have NATO stationed troops and equipment in them without triggering WW3. I'm waiting.

Besides, why would we ban Stalin's statues?

Because he is one of the most (if not most) genocidal dictators in history of mankind? I know you russians love him and I consider this utterly insane (and telling a lot). That kind of stance contributes to my opinion of Russians, that - as you can guess - is not very flattering.

If you think that a whole nation is insane and you're smarter than them all, it's not a sign that you're actually that smart - it's a sign that you're missing some important information about the world.

He took a country where 90% of people lived in complete shit and had close-to-zero chances to become living in not-shit and turned it into a country where about 50% of people lived in less shit and had real chances to become living in not-shit.

This would be more convincing if you could prove that under different system or ruler situation would be still shit or no better. Ever heard about opportunity cost?

The alternative to USSR is "be conquered by Nazi Germany" and Generalplan Ost.

Just read those fucking numbers:

Ethnic group    Percentage subject to removal
Poles    80–85%
Russians    50–60% to be physically eliminated and another 15% to be sent to Western Siberia.
Belarusians    75%
Ukrainians    65%
Lithuanians    85%
Latvians    50%
Estonians    50%[13]
Czechs    50%
Latgalians    100%

That's the opportunity cost of Russia not becoming USSR. Russian Empire has lost against a vastly weaker WW1 Germany, it would've lost against WW2 Germany instantly. And democracy wasn't an option because Kerensky was an idiot who managed to completely discreditize the democracy in Russia in just half a year by enacting the stupidest decisions possible.

[mainiac]

The alternative to USSR is "be conquered by Nazi Germany" and Generalplan Ost.

Oh that's a real mature and honest answer 

[Sergarr]

The alternative to USSR is "be conquered by Nazi Germany" and Generalplan Ost.

Oh that's a real mature and honest answer 

You have any other alternatives that can both give a life quality boost higher than what USSR did (compared to "90% of population are rightless peasants living in shit", USSR is better, yes) while also acquiring enough military/economical power to defeat Nazi Germany /w  help from the Allies?

[Owlbread]

I deeply dislike Russian nationalist appropriation of Communist symbols and brands in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine, and I do agree with UR's assessment of the current parties in Ukraine, but I don't think banning parties and symbols is the answer. Any country that has to do stuff like that comes across as very insecure to me, which isn't a good thing.

AAAND you just called Germany insecure

Yes, I would agree with that. I think Germany is "insecure" - not necessarily in terms of military etc, rather I don't think Germans are quite at ease with the early-mid 20th century in their history. I can't blame them, and I don't know what needs to be done to improve the situation.

[Sheb]

Hey, can we please leave the AGG material to the AGG thread?

[Descan]

Saying "we would have been conquered by Nazis!" Doesn't make the USSR good, just that they were better than the alternatives. When every option is shitty, you don't take the least shitty option and say it's made of gold, you take it and work/wait/hope for an actually good one. And when you actually DO get a better (still shitty) option? You don't venerate the old least-shit option.

[Sergarr]

Saying "we would have been conquered by Nazis!" Doesn't make the USSR good, just that they were better than the alternatives. When every option is shitty, you don't take the least shitty option and say it's made of gold, you take it and work/wait/hope for an actually good one. And when you actually DO get a better (still shitty) option? You don't venerate the old least-shit option.

Thing is, USSR was better than both Nazi Germany and Russian Empire by a mile. In all Russian history, that period (Stalin's rule) is probably the one of maximum growth. From a war battered country with barely any industry, with mass famines every 5 years, with 90% of population being barely literal peasants, with an anti-intellectual ruling class, to a industrial powerhouse with close to zero famines afterwards, with mass literacy, and with people having a real chance to get a better quality of life through hard work.

[Darvi]

Saying "we would have been conquered by Nazis!" Doesn't make the USSR good, just that they were better than the alternatives. When every option is shitty, you don't take the least shitty option and say it's made of gold, you take it and work/wait/hope for an actually good one. And when you actually DO get a better (still shitty) option? You don't venerate the old least-shit option.

Thing is, USSR was better than both Nazi Germany and Russian Empire by a mile.

Still doesn't make it not-shitty.

[Zangi]

Saying "we would have been conquered by Nazis!" Doesn't make the USSR good, just that they were better than the alternatives. When every option is shitty, you don't take the least shitty option and say it's made of gold, you take it and work/wait/hope for an actually good one. And when you actually DO get a better (still shitty) option? You don't venerate the old least-shit option.

You have to say its gold though... or people won't accept its not-as-shittiness and be content with their shittier alternatives.

[Digital Hellhound]

Ah yes, the zero famines of Stalinist rule, such as the non-existent 1932-1933 Ukrainean famine. Grain harvest also fell from 73.3 million tons in 1928 to 67.6 by 1934, numbers of cattle fell from 70 million to 34 million between 1928-1932, sheep and goats from 146 to 42 million, pigs from 26 to 9 million. Agricultural development started increasing later, but even then there were problems. That's not even mentioning the chaos and deaths caused by the hunt for kulaks that were a part of Stalin's collectivization.

(Source here is Stephen Lee's European Dictatorships 1918-1945, if anyone is interested. The first time I've had a source literally sitting in my lap when needed.)

[Sheb]

To be honest, the post-Stalin USSR was a batter place than the pre-Stalin USSR. The part in between had its downside though.

[Sergarr]

Ah yes, the zero famines of Stalinist rule, such as the non-existent 1932-1933 Ukrainean famine. Grain harvest also fell from 73.3 million tons in 1928 to 67.6 by 1934, numbers of cattle fell from 70 million to 34 million between 1928-1932, sheep and goats from 146 to 42 million, pigs from 26 to 9 million. Agricultural development started increasing later, but even then there were problems. That's not even mentioning the chaos and deaths caused by the hunt for kulaks that were a part of Stalin's collectivization.

(Source here is Stephen Lee's European Dictatorships 1918-1945, if anyone is interested. The first time I've had a source literally sitting in my lap when needed.)

Saying "we would have been conquered by Nazis!" Doesn't make the USSR good, just that they were better than the alternatives. When every option is shitty, you don't take the least shitty option and say it's made of gold, you take it and work/wait/hope for an actually good one. And when you actually DO get a better (still shitty) option? You don't venerate the old least-shit option.

Thing is, USSR was better than both Nazi Germany and Russian Empire by a mile. In all Russian history, that period (Stalin's rule) is probably the one of maximum growth. From a war battered country with barely any industry, with mass famines every 5 years, with 90% of population being barely literal peasants, with an anti-intellectual ruling class, to a industrial powerhouse with close to zero famines afterwards, with mass literacy, and with people having a real chance to get a better quality of life through hard work.

afterward
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adverb af·ter·ward \ˈaf-tə(r)-wərd\

: at a later time : after something has happened

Of fucking course I meant no famines after Stalin's rule!

How stupid you must think me to be to believe that there were no famines during early USSR period?!