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[Sergarr]

So, basically, you are saying that russians dont care who's in charge, so long as SOMEONE is in charge?

That's a pretty dangerous view to take.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Russians usually care about the person in charge having interests corresponding with these of Russia. I'm saying that if Putin dies, then there are people who will take his place who I can rely on not screwing everything up (at least immediately).

The person who takes the place after that, though... they may be dangerous. And then we might need to revolt. But that's a thing that may or may not happen, and is kinda far into the future.

[Owlbread]

You're right to an extent Sergarr, but remember Hungary? Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? Sorry I'm not being nuanced, just posting from my phone, but my point is it was very chaotic after Stalin. I also think Stalin crippled the USSR with his style of rule and it was never right until it dissolved. No ruler after him could rule as effectively (brutally and immorally but effectively) - instead you would wind up with guys like Khrushchev, or stagnant, octogenarian puppets like Brezhnev, or well meaning reformers like Gorbachev who end it all.

[scriver]

And why would we start questioning where Putin was? Can't a person have some free time without having anyone question where exactly he was? It's not like it would change anything, so why bother?

When you're the leader of a country , no. Then it's generally smart to let people know where you are.

[Sergarr]

You're right to an extent Sergarr, but remember Hungary? Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? Sorry I'm not being nuanced, just posting from my phone, but my point is it was very chaotic after Stalin. I also think Stalin crippled the USSR with his style of rule and it was never right until it dissolved. No ruler after him could rule as effectively (brutally and immorally but effectively) - instead you would wind up with guys like Khrushchev, or stagnant, octogenarian puppets like Brezhnev, or well meaning reformers like Gorbachev who end it all.

It also wasn't right after it dissolved. A chronic alcoholic that was Yeltzin, whose reign saw the hugest drop of life quality in Russia in history (discounting wars)? No thanks, I'll pass. Putin? A stop-gap solution at best. He stopped the Yeltzin's spiral of destruction from accelerating, but he wasn't quite able to fully reverse it.

And before Stalin, there was a maniacal world-changer. And before him, a humane-but-weak person. And before him, a nobody. And before him, a semi-decent ruler who was kind and close to the people and got killed by terrorists for that.

I've had to move about 130 years into the past to find a decent humane ruler. And I'd have to move even further back to find a second one. We've kind of not really figured how to do the "get decent rulers into place" part.

[Dutchling]

russians get kinda homicidal when they get to rule over other russians

researchers have yet to find out why

[Sergarr]

russians get kinda homicidal when they get to rule over other russians

researchers have yet to find out why

I'm pretty sure I know why.

Because politics are considered to be bad and not something a good Russian would do. Cultural thing. Thus usually the only people getting in politics are assholes. Reinforcing the stereotype in the process.

Either that or it's the hivemind.

[notquitethere]

And before him, a semi-decent ruler who was kind and close to the people and got killed by terrorists for that.

Not exactly how I'd characterise the motivations of Narodnaya Volya. Alexander II wasn't killed for being a nice guy, he was killed because he was the leader of the autocracy. Just because he was good so far as emperors go, doesn't mean there should have been an Emperor in the first place. Assassinating every leader of an autocracy regardless of their ameliorations is a straightforward way to end autocracy.

[Sergarr]

And before him, a semi-decent ruler who was kind and close to the people and got killed by terrorists for that.

Not exactly how I'd characterise the motivations of Narodnaya Volya. Alexander II wasn't killed for being a nice guy, he was killed because he was the leader of the autocracy. Just because he was good so far as emperors go, doesn't mean there should have been an Emperor in the first place. Assassinating every leader of an autocracy regardless of their ameliorations is a straightforward way to end autocracy.

And how well that worked out?

Every time when people have tried to end autocracy by killing the leader has ended in an even stronger autocracy.

Nikolai II? => Stalin.

Alexander II? => Alexander III (who was much more of an autocrat than II)

Decembrists? => Nikolai I.

What a good track record! Oh wait, it's not. It's an incredibly shitty record because REAL autocrats are paranoid enough to prevent themselves from being killed, and the decent, humane ones are the ones who aren't! That's why it's a shitty idea!

[mainiac]

It's rather easy to get a unanimous result if you ignore everything that doesn't agree...

Park Chung-hee assasinated => Korea returns to democracy
Santa Anna flees from a death sentance => Mexico has elections and eventually returns to democracy

Actually no nevermind, Korea and Mexico had people who actually gave a shit about democracy and rule of law so clearly those examples are irrelevant to discussions of Russia.

[Sergarr]

Actually no nevermind, Korea and Mexico had people who actually gave a shit about democracy and rule of law so clearly those examples are irrelevant to discussions of Russia.

Yeah, that. Russians don't give a shit about "rule of law" and "democracy", they give a shit about "protecting its citizens from any outside opponent by being able to kick all their asses" and "not interfering with normal people's lives too much outside the part required for ass-kicking".

It's a result of the country being under a multi-century long oppression from mongols and being unable to do anything about them regularly invading and burning our cities. Kind of switched our priorities.

[smjjames]

Actually no nevermind, Korea and Mexico had people who actually gave a shit about democracy and rule of law so clearly those examples are irrelevant to discussions of Russia.

Yeah, that. Russians don't give a shit about "rule of law" and "democracy", they give a shit about "protecting its citizens from any outside opponent by being able to kick all their asses" and "not interfering with normal people's lives too much outside the part required for ass-kicking".

It's a result of the country being under a multi-century long oppression from mongols and being unable to do anything about them regularly invading and burning our cities. Kind of switched our priorities.

Technically Russia as a modern state didn't exist back then, what you had were Muscovy, Novgorod, and a bunch of other Russian princedoms.

[Sergarr]

Actually no nevermind, Korea and Mexico had people who actually gave a shit about democracy and rule of law so clearly those examples are irrelevant to discussions of Russia.

Yeah, that. Russians don't give a shit about "rule of law" and "democracy", they give a shit about "protecting its citizens from any outside opponent by being able to kick all their asses" and "not interfering with normal people's lives too much outside the part required for ass-kicking".

It's a result of the country being under a multi-century long oppression from mongols and being unable to do anything about them regularly invading and burning our cities. Kind of switched our priorities.

Technically Russia as a modern state didn't exist back then, what you had were Muscovy, Novgorod, and a bunch of other Russian princedoms.

It's directly related to why Russia has formed. The Russians have learned their lesson, and it was "never split the party, or else you're going to be regularly raided and robbed of any "excessive" valuables by people who you could've beaten if you were united, for several generations, without an end in sight".

[mainiac]

Literally the argument used by every dictator ever. 

[Antsan]

I think that is Sergarr's point.

[Sergarr]

Literally the argument used by every dictator ever. 

Then most Russians are dictators. Crazy, huh.