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[martinuzz]

Geez, when I skimmed the newspaper yesterday, I did not pay it much heed. I thought some random people in Ukraine had accused Russia of sending a team to attack the Dutch diplomatic mission sent to negotiate about the MH-17 crash site.

But apparently, it was not just some random Unkrainians who spread this rumour. It was the Ukrainian Intelligence Agency.
Ko Colijn, the director of our foreign affairs think tank, the Insitute Clingendael (our government ministers kinda do what the Institute advises them to do) has stated that he finds it hard to believe that Russia actually would do that. Murder a diplomatic party, which includes the Dutch minister of foreign affairs. He speculates that it is most likely the Ukraine fearing another attack, and trying this desperate measure to involve NATO, or at the least, try to manipulate public opinion.

He also stated that there are two options.
1) the Ukrainian report is falsified. In that case Ukraine will most likely become isolated, and find much less willingness for cooperation with the EU.
2) Russia actually did want to take out the diplomatic team, for whatever reason. In that case, that would mean a definitive end to diplomatic relations between NATO members and Russia.


source: http://www.volkskrant.nl/opinie/aanslag-op-regeringsdelegatie-bijna-erger-dan-neerschieten-vliegtuig~a3793728/

Seems like either Ukrainian intelligence made a very stupid mistake, or Putin really wants to get WW3 started already.

[Sergarr]

Geez, when I skimmed the newspaper yesterday, I did not pay it much heed. I thought some random people in Ukraine had accused Russia of sending a team to attack the Dutch diplomatic mission sent to negotiate about the MH-17 crash site.

But apparently, it was not just some random Unkrainians who spread this rumour. It was the Ukrainian Intelligence Agency.
Ko Colijn, the director of our foreign affairs think tank, the Insitute Clingendael (our government ministers kinda do what the Institute advises them to do) has stated that he finds it hard to believe that Russia actually would do that. Murder a diplomatic party, which includes the Dutch minister of foreign affairs. He speculates that it is most likely the Ukraine fearing another attack, and trying this desperate measure to involve NATO, or at the least, try to manipulate public opinion.

He also stated that there are two options.
1) the Ukrainian report is falsified. In that case Ukraine will most likely become isolated, and find much less willingness for cooperation with the EU.
2) Russia actually did want to take out the diplomatic team, for whatever reason. In that case, that would mean a definitive end to diplomatic relations between NATO members and Russia.


source: http://www.volkskrant.nl/opinie/aanslag-op-regeringsdelegatie-bijna-erger-dan-neerschieten-vliegtuig~a3793728/

Seems like either Ukrainian intelligence made a very stupid mistake, or Putin really wants to get WW3 started already.

I bet everything on the first one. Wouldn't be the first mistake they did. They're kinda used to forging insane anti-Russian propaganda at this point.

[martinuzz]

I bet everything on the first one. Wouldn't be the first mistake they did. They're kinda used to forging insane anti-Russian propaganda at this point.

Although I find both sides to be equally proficient !!mud!! throwers, my intuition is with you on this one.
However, the more cynical part of me urges me to share a 3d option that would spring to my mind.

3) Russia planted a mole in Ukrainian intelligence, at sufficiently high level to deliver a falsified official report to foreign dignitaries. Report is proven falsified by Dutch, EU doesn't like Ukraine anymore, Putin wins.

[Loud Whispers]

I can't tell who's trying to cointelpro who anymore.

[Sergarr]

I bet everything on the first one. Wouldn't be the first mistake they did. They're kinda used to forging insane anti-Russian propaganda at this point.

Although I find both sides to be equally proficient !!mud!! throwers, my intuition is with you on this one.
However, the more cynical part of me urges me to share a 3d option that would spring to my mind.

3) Russia planted a mole in Ukrainian intelligence, at sufficiently high level to deliver a falsified official report to foreign dignitaries. Report is proven falsified by Dutch, EU doesn't like Ukraine anymore, Putin wins.

There's a saying in my country: "Не тайная ложа, а явная лажа". It translates to "Not a secret lodge, but an obvious mess".

Also, Europe is forced to support Ukraine in current situation no matter what they do at this point. They've already invested too much money and political capital in supporting Ukraine, they can't simply back-off from that into atmosphere (like Putin).

[Sheb]

Also, Europe is forced to support Ukraine in current situation no matter what they do at this point. They've already invested too much money and political capital in supporting Ukraine, they can't simply back-off from that into atmosphere (like Putin).

Not at all.

First of all, it's important to remember that "Europe" doesn't exist, as far as foreign policy go. What you have is 28 member states, with conflicting goals trying to kinda work together.

So basically, what happened was that there was very little appetite for further expansion in Western European countries, and certainly no appetite for getting Ukraine within the EU anytime soon. (Sure, Croatia got in, but they have a tenth of the population and 5 time the per capita GDP of Ukraine, so no one is worrying about hords of Croats getting our jobs). The Eastern Partnership, the deal whose refusal started the Maidan, was basically a compromise between Western Europeans and a bunch of Eastern Europeans and Nordic led by the Poles: not access to the EU, but a way to tie Ukraine to Europe.

That being said, Putin's reaction caught everyone off-guard. While the Western Europeans still by and large don't care much about Ukraine, it has scared some Eastern Europeans, including some like Estonia, who have sizable Russian-speaking population, are very vulnerable to Russia, fears it for historical reasons and have already suffered aggressive actions (The 2007 cyberattack come to mind).

So now, we again have several countries coming together. Some, like the Estonians, feel like they have to help the Ukrainians achieve the kind of independence from Russia they got in 1991 (For the anecdote, Estonian intelligence was of great help to Georgia in 2008, and the flat my father was working from was called the "Estonian kitchen" as a lot of intelligence agents worked from there). Other are scared, and feel that we have to stop Putin in Ukraine before he start chewing on them. Some like France or Britain don't care that much and mostly want to keep Russian cash from flowing in their shipyards and financial centers, but are pressured into enforcing sanctions by the other.

None of them feels like we need to support Ukraine because of the sunken cost fallacy.

[Owlbread]

Today Nicola Sturgeon became the first female First Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish government. Or at least... parliament nominated her for the post and we're waiting for the Queen to decide to accept the will of the parliament and appoint her as First Minister. Yes, really.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Wait.. the queen actually has that sort of power? What's all this about it being a purely symbolic office? Does the monarchy just never use that power [because of obvious consequences] so people never took it away?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The queen's assent hasn't been refused in a long time, as I recall.

[Owlbread]

Wait.. the queen actually has that sort of power? What's all this about it being a purely symbolic office? Does the monarchy just never use that power [because of obvious consequences] so people never took it away?

Yeah, that's it exactly. The Queen can dissolve the Parliament of the United Kingdom if she wants, she just only does it when the PM etc ask her to i.e. before elections or something. She has vast amounts of power, she just never uses it because she'd get overthrown.

The "symbolic office" bullshit is the biggest lie the British public take as truth these days. The Monarchy is incredibly influential by their very nature as the top of the class system. Jimmy Savile, now infamous paedophile and sex offender, was pretty much untouchable back in the 80s because of his links to the Monarchy and Prince Charles and such.

[Descan]

The queen is basically two sides of a single coin. She has a lot of overt powers, but she can't use them or get overthrown. But she also has massive influence, and a simple nod or frown at the right moment can influence what people do, who they support, or what legislation is enacted. Do you think any one wants to disappoint the queen, after all? That's not even counting her actually doing things like talking to MPs or anything like that. She doesn't need to actually use those overt, on-paper powers to get what she wants done.

All of her on-paper power is useless, and she's very potent with her off-paper power.

[MonkeyHead]

The best example of this juxtaposition is the armed forces. They are technically under the command of the ruling monarch, but are funded by Parliament. IIRC, this came about as a result of the civil war and that cunt Oliver Cromwell.

[Sheb]

So, speaking of Germans, Neo-Nazis and humor: a German town turned a neo-nazi march into a walkathon to collect money for a program to get people out of neo-nazis groups.

[LordSlowpoke]

i greatly enjoy how they just went along with it

[scrdest]

i greatly enjoy how they just went along with it

They didn't know until after they started, and even then it's hard to tell how much they knew.