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[Sergarr]

Majority of Ukrainians are ready to make serious concessions to Russia and DPR and LPR leaders in exchange for establishment of peace

I think this poll may be interesting for Bay12ers

Would you personally let go of Donetsk and Luhansk areas(not just what the pro-Russians/Russians control within Ukraine now) for peace? How about peace and getting rid of Russia and for partial or complete Euro-integration in say 20 years from now?

That would cause immediate riots by the "Right Sector" troops and half the parties in the Rada. Possibly with National Guard, too. Given that the National Guard chief is also since the last moths the chief of the Ukrainian Army, the chances are this decision won't last.

[Erkki]

Majority of Ukrainians are ready to make serious concessions to Russia and DPR and LPR leaders in exchange for establishment of peace

I think this poll may be interesting for Bay12ers

Would you personally let go of Donetsk and Luhansk areas(not just what the pro-Russians/Russians control within Ukraine now) for peace? How about peace and getting rid of Russia and for partial or complete Euro-integration in say 20 years from now?

That would cause immediate riots by the "Right Sector" troops and half the parties in the Rada. Possibly with National Guard, too. Given that the National Guard chief is also since the last moths the chief of the Ukrainian Army, the chances are this decision won't last.

I didnt ask how realistic he thinks Ukraine voluntarily letting go of those areas is.

Russia's former secretary of finance(2000-2011) Aleksei Kudrin was interviewed some days ago in Helsinki. http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/jutut/ulkomaat/eurooppa/venajan-ex-ministeri-emme-pysy-muun-maailman-kyydissa/?shared=57931-0c012433-500

He has some very critical opinions of today's Russia. The geopolitical and ethic etc. subjects are not touched, just the economy and how its run. Basically, he thinks that at this rate Russia cant hope to keep pace with the rest of the world as many economical reforms have not advanced and there is no interest in the current political leadership to advance them. Russia in his opinion remains too corrupted and too reliant on her oil and gas exports while consuming too much on military at the expense of her education especially. He also sees the current worsening political climate and sanctions strangle the economy, scare away foreign investments and slow down the reforms even more as the state has to help her companies(as an example, Rosneft is mention as having taken a 49 billion USD investment support(however that is translated)).

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Would you personally let go of Donetsk and Luhansk areas(not just what the pro-Russians/Russians control within Ukraine now) for peace? How about peace and getting rid of Russia and for partial or complete Euro-integration in say 20 years from now?

I am a nationalist. I believe that interests of the nation>territory. I could agree to that. But that would be an option only if that would stop Russia. Sadly such decision will not stop Russia. Any agreement with Russia isn't worth paper it printed on. Putin's goal is whole South-Eastern Ukraine if not more.

For me the current war is not a war for Donetsk. It is war for my city. The only reason I have no that shit at my home only because thousands of Ukrainians died to prevent(or rather delay) it.  In such situation giving up any territory without a fight is counterproductive.

[miljan]

Majority of Ukrainians are ready to make serious concessions to Russia and DPR and LPR leaders in exchange for establishment of peace

I think this poll may be interesting for Bay12ers

Would you personally let go of Donetsk and Luhansk areas(not just what the pro-Russians/Russians control within Ukraine now) for peace? How about peace and getting rid of Russia and for partial or complete Euro-integration in say 20 years from now?

The thing is, russia also doesnt want it for those regions to be independent. Its not in their interest. While people there probably want to be independent after all the things happened there, and in few other ukraine areas that are under ukraine control at the moment, the last say will have russia.

[miljan]

...what the heck!

You should keep in mind there is propaganda war going on. You will see a lot of pro russia propaganda and pro west propaganda (or anti russian, dont know how to call it). A lot of things posted around are very hard to check are they true or not, and some of them turned out to not be correct in the end (like that pro west propaganda about Donald Tusk saying about a plan in 2008 of dividing ukraine)

[Owlbread]

"We went to war because Germany invaded Poland, but none of us had ever seen a Pole. Then the Polish soldiers arrived and we found that they were so polite and good looking. They had gold fillings in their teeth and they used to kiss the back of the ladies' hands. That was certainly something new in Scotland. And they had nice names too, like Leon."

I found this interesting. History, eh? I wonder what Polish Bay 12 users make of the Scottish assessment of Poles from that time-period. An awful lot of Scottish women were wooed by those dashing Polish army officers; there's a fair number of their descendents around today. Then again, our women (including my grandmother) were also wooed by the many dashing Italian immigrants. I think Scottish women in the 1940s and 50s just had a real thing for foreign men, you know?

I can name three leading figures in the SNP who are apparently second-generation Italians; Lindia Fabiani MSP, Marco Biagi MSP (who gave his oath to the Queen in Italian) and there's also Toni Giugliano, a senior member of the Yes Campaign who was actually born in Italy and left the country at 7. He'll probably end up in the European Parliament pretty soon. Here's an article on the subject from an Italian weekly news magazine.

But yes, I think the SNP should make Scottish political history by putting forward the first Polish and Hungarian born candidates for the next elections in 2016, in contrast to Westminster parties like Labour and the Conservatives who are trying to stave off the UKIP advance by scapegoating immigrants from the EU and elsewhere. We've got excellent people from pro-Yes groups like Poles for Yes and Africans for Independence who could either stand in the Scottish Parliamentary election in 2016 or the Council Election the year after. It would be bold, but I'd love to see it and it would show these Scots that they will have good representation in their new home. Better Together campaigners regularly intimidated immigrants by telling them they'd get deported if they voted Yes and the biggest problem for them was that they didn't really have anyone to go to. If we could get two or three representatives from these communities and put them front and centre then that will change things for the next time, and help immigrants get integrated into our society in general.

There's a number of figures that will probably take prominent positions in 2016 from the Scottish Asian community too like Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh and Anum Qaisar. Though Asians have been well represented in the SNP for a long time it would be great to get some Scots Asian women in parliament. I should add that I think they both have a lot of potential as politicans; Anum Qaisar especially.

EDIT:

I'm getting a sense of de ja vu. Did I make the exact same post 3-4 weeks ago, or did I dream it?

[miauw62]

I don't really get the point you're trying to make, but Belgium's last PM was a second-generation Italian. (His father was a coal miner)

[Owlbread]

I don't really get the point you're trying to make, but Belgium's last PM was a second-generation Italian. (His father was a coal miner)

That is an interesting fact.

I am not trying to make a particular point or anything,  I'm just commenting on something I found interesting. I suppose I am expressing a wish for the SNP to make a point of going down a completely different route to the Labour Party which has started scapegoating immigrants to win back UKIP votes.

[Helgoland]

So I recently re-read Heine's Wintermärchen - it sheds some light on the very interesting issue of patriotism among German intellectuals during the 19th century. Owlbread, if there's any way you can get your hands on it, try it out - you'll love it! Especially if you get all the jokes about the Prussians

[Sheb]

Early or Late 19th century? Recently, I've been really interested in the raise of German nationalism before the unification of Germany.

[XXSockXX]

Early or Late 19th century? Recently, I've been really interested in the raise of German nationalism before the unification of Germany.

1844, so after the rise of early German nationalism, but before the revolution of 1848 and way before unification. It's really good and quite funny if you get the references.

[Sheb]

Great, I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

[XXSockXX]

Great, I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

It's on Project Gutenberg in German (also on the German version of Project Gutenberg).
It's a classic piece of German literature, so I'm sure there are translations, but I don't know how good they are.

[Helgoland]

Great, I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

He complains about dumb nationalism (among other things), making fun of the Barbarossa legend and the Burschenschaften. If you want to learn about the rise of German nationalism you need to go back about thirty years, to the time when we threw out the damn frogs

[MarcAFK]

Great, I'll see if I can find it somewhere.

He complains about dumb nationalism (among other things), making fun of the Barbarossa legend and the Burschenschaften. If you want to learn about the rise of German nationalism you need to go back about thirty years, to the time when we threw out the damn frogs

What a waste of frogs.