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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1784520 times)

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11625 on: October 04, 2014, 09:11:31 am »

both would be nice but first is good enough

according from wikipedia data on palestinians and the 2013 israeli census it'd take a mass migration of every single palestinian from neighboring nations to push jews into a minority

are you really saying that people would just drop gaza and all the other places they'd get after a withdrawal and jump into israel, especially in such huge amounts
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burningpet

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11626 on: October 04, 2014, 09:38:47 am »

Without a doubt.

The sole reason they are still refugees for 66 years now, is that they could return someday to israel.

That's also the official reason why they are not being resettled in the countries they are refugees in. this is not a secret. its something which surrounding arab countries fully admitted and stated before.

If UNRWA, which is a UN agency that is dedicated to palestinian refugees, would have accepted the standards for defining who is a refugee of UNHCR, the agency that is responsible for the majority of the rest of the world's refugees, the palestinian refugee numbers would have been around 50K and more so, would probably even have been resettled safely in another country by now. palestinian refugees are the only refugee population that is growing over the years. some of them even have citizenships in other countries, but ironically, this doesn't negate their refugee status.
http://www.haaretz.co.il/magazine/the-edge/.premium-1.2436541
From haaretz, a left-extreme left newspaper.

"In April 1952 Alexander Galloway, former UNWRA director in Jordan, gave the reason for the discrimination:- “The Arab nations do not want to solve the Arab refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore and weapon against Israel.”

So, besides the fact that their very definition as refugees is so they could one day return to israel, its obvious they would quickly abandon their below-standard-even-for-arab-countries refugee camps and move to a country which has far better living conditions.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 09:50:07 am by burningpet »
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Descan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11627 on: October 04, 2014, 10:47:57 am »

... Your evidence for this being a quote from 1952. 15 years before the war this whole mess is because of? And only 5 years after the State of Israel became a thing?

Seriously? You don't see how that's an issue?
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scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11628 on: October 04, 2014, 10:55:31 am »

And none if it matters anyway, since these people have a right to return to the country they were driven from. Israel refusing to let them do so to keep Israel a Jewish State is nothing more than racism. Nazi Germany wanting lebensraum for the Germans is a direct analogy here, which makes it even more tragically ironic.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11629 on: October 04, 2014, 11:02:08 am »

When it comes to non-Palestine, "return to the country they were driven from" is by now an expired statement. There is very little continuation of personage for a Palestinian inhabited Israel. As such, it would be more bad than good unless there was an effective one-state solution implemented.

I'm sympathetic to the Palestinians, but this "Israel is illegal gib coastal land back fascists" is now a purely political lever, and a disturbing one since it still frequently has "(drive the Jews into the sea)" implied or even stated around it. I'm not accusing you of that last one, but I've seen it from similar viewpoints before.
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Morrigi

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11630 on: October 04, 2014, 12:38:11 pm »

He has a point, though. The Palestinians were driven from their land by force, and have been continuously since the formation of Israel. Even before Israel, the Palestinians were oppressed by the British Empire.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11631 on: October 04, 2014, 12:55:44 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipWDz8vzdxI

Russian Army Separatists video of attack on Donetsk Airport
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11632 on: October 04, 2014, 01:19:43 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipWDz8vzdxI

Russian Army Separatists video of attack on Donetsk Airport

Ukraine will take a while to get peaceful again, from the looks of things.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11633 on: October 04, 2014, 02:17:45 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipWDz8vzdxI

Russian Army Separatists video of attack on Donetsk Airport
Original video with English subtitles.
It's weird to see Ukrainian media broadcasting videos filmed by DNR troops.

Edit: 23 minutes of more DNR combat footage, dated 02.10.2014
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 02:25:21 pm by Guardian G.I. »
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11634 on: October 04, 2014, 02:25:13 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipWDz8vzdxI

Russian Army Separatists video of attack on Donetsk Airport
Original video with English subtitles.
It's weird to see Ukrainian media broadcasting videos filmed by DNR troops.
The Ukraine doesn't have many reporters in the area.

I wonder why?

EDIT: Also, that video looks like a modern FPS. 

It's disturbing how close it actually looks to modern FPS.

Really disturbing.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 02:27:52 pm by Sergarr »
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burningpet

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11635 on: October 04, 2014, 02:25:21 pm »

... Your evidence for this being a quote from 1952. 15 years before the war this whole mess is because of? And only 5 years after the State of Israel became a thing?

Seriously? You don't see how that's an issue?

I am naturally assuming people who criticize israel at least knows the basic facts of this conflict. this, my friend, is as basic as it gets. seriously, the issue here is not me not bothering to find evidence for you, the issue is people arguing stuff they know surprisingly extremely little of. but so you wont be left hanging, just open wikipedia, its right there.

And none if it matters anyway, since these people have a right to return to the country they were driven from. Israel refusing to let them do so to keep Israel a Jewish State is nothing more than racism. Nazi Germany wanting lebensraum for the Germans is a direct analogy here, which makes it even more tragically ironic.

There are more than enough "liberal" countries that only allow population of certain identity to automatically return to their state. comparing it to germans who executed jewish is a very bad analogy.

The point is, they didn't live in this country. their great grandfather might and fled for various reasons, but that doesn't mean anything. if anyone truly cared about palestines, as in, cared about the people, the human beings, they would have tried to give them a realistic home, a decent life, instead of using them as a political and military leverage. by perpetuating those ridiculous claims, you are only prolonging their actual suffering.

I, and i am pretty confident no one else in israel has any problem to accept back those that are defined as palestine refugees by the UNHCR standards, not the UNRWA standards, but by the other, globally accepted definition. with them, you have a point, but with the 5M who got a special treatment due to arab pressure? nope.

He has a point, though. The Palestinians were driven from their land by force, and have been continuously since the formation of Israel. Even before Israel, the Palestinians were oppressed by the British Empire.

This is a pure fantasy, head in the wall approach. 1) More jews had to flee the arab countries than "palestines" had to flee israel. 2) The arab countries have completely ignored the UN decision and decided to exterminate the jews. forcing some of them out was a defensive move from a population that suffered a holocaust 3 years before that and were about the face a second one. 3) The arab countries themselves never accepted the UN decisions regarding refugees.

What was in the past should remain in the past. no one here try to claim back the riches jews held in the arab countries. (yes, there are european countries that allow jews to get local citizenships based on them being descendants of holocaust survivors who were citizens of said countries. this can not be compared because A) it is not universal. B) They actually want israeli immigrators.) palestinians should live happily in the surrounding countries and in the West bank/Gaza strip, with equal rights and equal opportunities.

About the palestinians numbers: Its not as simple as it sound. the population census at the time were extremely poor and it is already known that there were a lot of them who simply came to israel temporarily as foreign workers. but even if we take them as they are commonly presented, if those people were treated and defined as any other refugee population in the world, there wouldn't be 5M refugees now, which is impossible for israel to accept back, but 30-50K which israel would have happily accepted.

Again, if people care about the palestinian people themselves, they should stop using them as political, anti zionist tool. those are human beings. they have the right for decent lives. they have the right to be granted citizenship in the countries they live in. they have the right to have equal rights. they don't have the right to "return" (A country they never been to) to israel and realistically, they wont. so people should start realize this and start care about the actual people and not about ridiculous claims.

Just to be clear, because its something i find i have to repeat over and over. i am extremely in favour for getting the settlers out and returning to the `67 lines AND recognizing a palestine state, but it is extremely problematic since the muslim populations in this area are highly unstable and when you have a certain agreement with abu-mazen, it doesn't mean ISIS or Hamas will accept it as well once they take over and drive abu-mazen out. just like what happened in gaza.

Btw, there was a very interesting proposal from Sissi, the president of Egypt around a month ago. He offered the Palestines to have a state in sinai, in a land mass larger than what they would ever get, with access to the sea. this could have been the perfect opportunity for the palestines to have a state. to lift the blockade off from gaza. they declined it as quickly as an eye blink. why? because their leadership doesn't want a state. they don't want lands. they want Israel.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 12:48:16 am by burningpet »
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11636 on: October 04, 2014, 03:03:38 pm »

Take it to the appropriate thread please. Or, alternatively, make Israel join the EU. You might be in the Eurovision song contest, but that's not good enough for this thread :P

burningpet

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11637 on: October 04, 2014, 03:06:27 pm »

The thread starter is the one who brought this issue to here. and i would be extremely happy if israel left the eurovision.
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scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11638 on: October 04, 2014, 03:14:26 pm »

The point is, they didn't live in this country. their great grandfather might and fled for various reasons, but that doesn't mean anything. if anyone truly cared about palestines, as in, cared about the people, the human beings, they would have tried to give them a realistic home, a decent life, instead of using them as a political and military leverage. by perpetuating those ridiculous claims, you are only prolonging their actual suffering.

Considering the only reason Israel exists as a state is a 2000 year old claim getting precedence over both all the people who had lived there in the meantime and the people who were living there at the time, I don't really think there's grounds to claim "let the past be past and move on" without turning it into a cynical "let the past be past and move on because the current positions are favouring my people and you should just put everything bad we did to you to get here behind you already".
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #11639 on: October 04, 2014, 04:02:01 pm »

Thing is... Arabs have many Arab countries to live in. Jews have only one country
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