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[burningpet]

* LordSlowpoke slaps helgo

also, israel is taking material compensation for one of the atrocities you mentioned, funnily enough - though truth be told they did find the idea of doing so revolting when it began

thing being: shit was seven decades ago, the people - both responsible and the victims - are dying off if they aren't dead already, and the world is moving on

you should do so too

1) The jews that get compensation gets it for proven privately owned property and/or they get it only for those that were in the holocaust in germany or in a concentration camp. most of them only get it for proven disability caused by the holocaust. i, as a grandson to two holocaust survivors have no right to claim monetary compensation let alone claim ownership of the 2 general supplies store, 1 barber shop, 4 apartments and one rural estate my family owned throughout europe prior to the war, despite the fact i have official documents that prove so. my grandfather and grandmother never wanted anything to do with it and were happy to just bust their asses drying swamps in israel and build a new home, with them gone now, no one can claim even the ridiculous compensation given for such high lucrative assets anymore.

there are around 50-80K jewish people who receive such compensation. the vast majority of the money was given to israel on the base of costs of forced immigration funding.

2) Israel had offered such compensation in exchange for forfeiting the right of return to those who lived in israel at the time.

3) As i said, Israel will be more than willing to offer compensation and accept all the palestine refugees, as defined by the international definition. all the 30-50K of them. israel is rightfully not willing to accept "refugees" who never lived here and have no right to immigrate here.

The ones who should move on are the arabs. its the only realistic, humane thing to do so palestines gets equal rights and homes of their own.

* LordSlowpoke shrugs

reading is hard m8

now that i have a decent idea of what you meant consider the following: is israel in its 1948 borders now?

if no, why

afterwards i'd request you hop a few pages back (or into ye olde zion discussion threadas) and ask whenever israel is meant to be a jewish-only state or not, and what this means for the non-jewish population of the territories israel holds or would like to hold

additionally you should stumble upon what happens to the non-jewish population that does not happen to be in israel but originates from it in the neighboring countries (this is literally a page ago, on 15ppp)

this should explain pretty well why the process of acceptance is not happening

I am not following your reasoning. the non acceptance is not happening because it is a political interest of surrounding arab countries to make it impossible to happen. its in the education and in the treatment of said arabs in other arab countries. are you suggesting we should reward such behaviours? that palestines should wrongfully immigrate to israel because they are treated badly in arab countries?

Their right of return is as strong as greeks, romans, turks or british rights of return.

[scriver]

The point is, they didn't live in this country. their great grandfather might and fled for various reasons, but that doesn't mean anything. if anyone truly cared about palestines, as in, cared about the people, the human beings, they would have tried to give them a realistic home, a decent life, instead of using them as a political and military leverage. by perpetuating those ridiculous claims, you are only prolonging their actual suffering.

Considering the only reason Israel exists as a state is a 2000 year old claim getting precedence over both all the people who had lived there in the meantime and the people who were living there at the time, I don't really think there's grounds to claim "let the past be past and move on" without turning it into a cynical "let the past be past and move on because the current positions are favouring my people and you should just put everything bad we did to you to get here behind you already".

Because in 1948 no Jews were living in the region at all.

Riiight.

I never said there weren't, and regardless, it is completely irrelevant to the argument.

Why is it so difficult to treat the Palestinian refugees just like any others? Why is it that the Middle East conflict is the one case where we won't accept that bad things happened half a century ago? My grandparents were expelled from what is now western Poland, there's even the story of my mum's cousin almost being left at the train station because they thought he had frozen to death, only to be saved my my granfather's stubbornness, yet I don't go around claiming a right to the land that was theirs before the war. There have been innumerable German atrocities all over Europe, but nobody gets worked up about that or tries to claim reparations. No-one in what used to be Czechoslovakia would try to exact revenge upon Russia for the events of 1968.
Why is Israel special?

I'm not saying they have a right to the exact property they left behind, I'm saying they have a right to return to the region they were driven from.

Furthermore, Israel does recognise a right to return - for Jews. But not the people Israel itself forcefully displaced.

[burningpet]

It isn't completely irrelevant to your argument because you maintained that the state of israel is located where it is only because jews once lived here 2K years ago, while in truth, it had a large jewish population center even before the establishment of israel.

1st, Most of them israel didn't forcefully displaced, they left prior to the war and during its beginning wishing to return only once they manage to exterminate all jews and/or drive them to the sea.

2nd, as i said repeatedly, all the 30-50K who once lived here, even if they were simply newly immigrated foreign workers, are more than welcome to come back if the others will forfeit their ridiculous unjustified claim to return.

3rd, Israel, as any state, and evidently many other liberal european states also do, have the right to choose which population it wants to accept.
There is no reason for israel to just simply accept an immigration of a population hostile to itself just because some arab controlled countries think its a fine way to drive the little satan away. absolutely no reason. their right of return to israel is as strong as the greeks right of return, the romans, the turks and the british. its as strong as the right of return for palestinians to spain, as strong as the right of return of monglos to hungary and as strong as the right of return of swedish people to africa.

[mainiac]

Uh... That's pretty much precisely what I'm saying. People were pissed immediately afterwards, but aren't anymore now. Somehow, this process of acceptance is not taking place in the Middle East. 1945 and 1948 are pretty close.

Look at the of so damn generous conditions that the Israelis tolerate the Palestinians living in and this question answers itself.

[Guardian G.I.]

Can someone PLEASE start an Israel or middle-east thread? I would, but I want to actively avoid getting caught up in it, which is hard when you also have to moderate the thread.

We had one - it burned to the ground and was locked.
Discussing Israel is like discussing Russia - every polite discussion turns into a flaming holy war sooner or later.

[Darvi]

We should combine all the polthreads into one unholy ammalgamation of angry people saying stupid things. That way, the next time people start a flame war over Israel, they can get distracted by the latest Rick Perry flop.

[burningpet]

Uh... That's pretty much precisely what I'm saying. People were pissed immediately afterwards, but aren't anymore now. Somehow, this process of acceptance is not taking place in the Middle East. 1945 and 1948 are pretty close.

Look at the of so damn generous conditions that the Israelis tolerate the Palestinians living in and this question answers itself.

The palestinians living in israel have better conditions than all palestinians living elsewhere and also have better conditions than most other people in most other countries in the world.

The palestinians living outside israel is a completely different story and it is the direct result of their and their arab neighbours unwillingness to abandon their ridiculous and baseless demands and violent ways. plus, as i said in another thread, the palestinian quality of life is not related to their ability or willingness to let go of the past or their ridiculous claims:
At the start of the second intifada (which started because israel's PM ariel sharon visited the jews most holy place, with the explicit permission of the jordanian and palestinian authorities, even though it is an israeli land and he didn't even had to do that), their financial and freedom conditions were at their peak and were still rising. this simply proves that it isn't the life conditions that cause the palestinian aggression, but their unwillingness to concede defeat or let go of the dream of completely owning israel.

[Descan]

Do you consider the West Bank to be inside or outside of Israel? If outside, how is that related to their "unwillingness to abandon ridiculous demands"?

[mainiac]

That's a very interesting opinion you offer, burningpet.  It is probably an answer to a question nobody asked.

[burningpet]

That's a very interesting fact and it directly undermines your so called "answer/explanation".

[Sergarr]

If you all can't stop arguing about this, can you please move this discussion to PMs?

[Helgoland]

So I hear that Bulgaria's conservatives probably have won the election. I don't have a source in English, but maybe this will lead to a change of topic.

[Sheb]

Doesn't anyone wants to (re-)create an Israel/Middle East thread?

[Sheb]

I think everyone is. Mostly you need to lock it every so often when it gets out of hands.

[XXSockXX]

We're going to need a Middle East thread sooner or later, but as long as we're discussing Israel/Palestine, we might as well do something productive and just yell at each other for an hour. It's an issue everybody seems to have strong opinions about, not necessarily well-informed ones, so it is going to get flamey anyway.