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[scrdest]

Putin's army is not Russian. It is full of Soviet zombies.

OOCQing that, because it sounds way awesomer than reality.

[Sergarr]

I'm just baffled by the total indifference from Europe to this whole invasion thing

you see somewhere deep down in my soul i want the europe to help ukraine militarily and thus am trying to encourage the fellow europeans to do something about us

but it seems to me now that europe is a bunch of spineless coward who cannot protect a fellow future european country

and that is sad

[MonkeyHead]

Sergarr, as you quoted it, I know you read Frumple's post in the US politics thread. It sums up quite nicely why the EU or US has done nothing overt yet. Nothing has occurred that truly makes us care enough yet. The US/NATO/EU not caring is probably not a good thing, but at this moment in time, other than maybe making things worse, what else could come of any form of intervention?

[Loud Whispers]

but it seems to me now that europe is a bunch of spineless coward who cannot protect a fellow future european country

and that is sad

Just about sums it up really.

[Sergarr]

This is a very bad slippery slope, MonkeyHead. A very, very, very bad slippery slope.

Basically it shows that every single country that is not in NATO and has, or will have, a land border with Russia is completely and utterly fucked.

[MonkeyHead]

It may be - all that depends on how far Russia will push its luck, and how much it takes for the leadership of NATO/EU/USA to start giving a shit.

I honestly think that Russia/Putin will not go all "mad eastern landgrab" and that the current situation is one of opportunism rather than anything. I think that the relevant leaders also assume or at least hope this. Nobody wants a large, long drawn out war - all sides know this. Russia, or at least the current leadership regime, will be the loser if it does incur the ire of the west, and they damn well know it so will stop short of direct provocation, hence all the current cloak and dagger support of the rebels within Ukraine.

[10ebbor10]

One of the Primary Reasons, the European Union, The Council and all those international organistions were founded was the idea that war in Europe should never, ever occur again.

That idea is still lives rather strong within Europe.

[XXSockXX]

I'm just baffled by the total indifference from Europe to this whole invasion thing

What indifference? At least in German media the tone has shifted quite a bit with the recent developments.

It's clear that you can't wage open war with a nuclear power, so obviously there is not going to be much military help for Ukraine. That was absolutely clear from the beginning, what else would you expect? Stealth war on both sides? That wouldn't work out as long as all the proxy wars of the past...

There will be more sanctions though (slow as the EU is, talks begin next weekend), and probably NATO troops all along the Eastern Border, some time in the future.
Massive sanctions are difficult to get through, as that might cost people money and jobs and thus lead to politicians not being re-elected. But since it is the only thing that can realistically be done and nobody trusts Putin anymore, it's likely to happen.

Basically it shows that every single country that is not in NATO and has, or will have, a land border with Russia is completely and utterly fucked.

True. And who's fault is that? Putin is pretty much leading Russia back behind the Iron Curtain.

[timferius]

UN security council is meeting now. Not sure that'll accomplish much...

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Basically it shows that every single country that is not in NATO and has, or will have, a land border with Russia is completely and utterly fucked.

Especially China
Invading North Korea would be fun, too

As for help from Europe.... All I ask for - Real Sanctions, just to show that international law is a real thing

[Sergarr]

About tone shifts in media: how many people now even remember consciously about the Boeing catastrophe now? Just after one month, it has fallen completely out of media space. The rebels have killed 300 people, and everybody forgot about it just after a month.

I'm not sure if this tone shift won't get overshadowed after two weeks by something else, like ISIS fighting. I've seen a lot of news about them.

[Helgoland]

As for help from Europe.... All I ask for - Real Sanctions, just to show that international law is a real thing

How about weapons? Or even direct assistance with our air force - if Russia claims not to be involved, they can't shoot them down from within Russian territory, making air superiority much easier to achieve...

[da_nang]

About tone shifts in media: how many people now even remember consciously about the Boeing catastrophe now? Just after one month, it has fallen completely out of media space. The rebels have killed 300 people, and everybody forgot about it just after a month.

I'm not sure if this tone shift won't get overshadowed after two weeks by something else, like ISIS fighting. I've seen a lot of news about them.

The report's coming out in September, isn't it? It'll retake the stage soon.

[XXSockXX]

Just because a lot of people forget fast, especially if it doesn't concern them directly, doesn't mean the important people do too. The flashy short attention span news sites are not that interesting, but if even the parts of the left that have always defended Russia call for EU sanctions, that might imply long-term shifts in political thinking. Putin might win a war against Ukraine, but he is alienating a lot of people and losing goodwill very fast.

[Sergarr]

Wasn't the same happening in 2008, during the war with Georgia?