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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1778643 times)

GreatJustice

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9540 on: August 24, 2014, 10:01:36 am »

When I said "the Soviet Union of the 20s and 30s", I thought it was clear that I mostly meant the latter part of the 20s (after the Poland-Soviet war) and the earlier part of the 30s (before Stalin purged the best military minds of the time). Regardless, the Poland-USSR war took place almost immediately after/during the Civil War, with the Red Army being in the midst of reorganization and many of the White forces either not integrated or still fighting against the Soviets. Anyhow, the Soviet military advantage peaked around 1934 or so, when it's new designs were state of the art and it's military structure was functional. After that, Stalin screwed things up in a variety of ways:

-His purges wiped out the bulk of his officer corps, with the result being that the Red Army of 1941 was horrifically understaffed, with those few officers still around being inexperienced and often incompetent
-He removed the territorial army of the Soviet Union and put it into the regular forces, depriving the USSR of extra competent manpower when it was needed most
-He appeased Hitler by providing him raw materials even when it was obvious Hitler was planning an attack. He also had anyone who pointed out the obvious imminent invasion arrested.
-When Hitler attacked, he required his officers throw their forces into bloody meatgrinders rather than fall back, resulting in massive losses for basically no gains.
-He was sufficiently tyrannical that the Nazis were able to recruit many Russians into anti-Soviet forces (an impressive feat considering how the Nazis treated those in the East)

Industrialization may have been slower without the Bolsheviks and, to some degree, Stalin, but its worth mentioning that Russia was already on that road as of the 1890s, and likely would have had a fairly strong industrial base by the 30s anyway, and probably with less unnecessary deaths too. Anyhow, even if you really like the Bolsheviks for whatever reason, Stalin was easily the worst of the bunch. He had pretty much every other Communist from his time executed for some reason or another.
1) The officer corps had a lot of Old Guard, which was basically those people who made the revolution in the first place. These people have argued at the time that Russia must be used as a launching platform for a massive bloody attack on Europe. These people should not have been in a USSR.
2) Territorial army is not functional, it's corruption hell. I'm not sure why you're so praising it, when it is obvious that the very idea of territorial army is wrong. It's like if States in USA has their own private armies. It's ineffective at defending against a competent attacking army, because it's practically immobile. You know what happened to French army when Germans attacked? Yeah.
3) Dude, Churchill appeased Hitler much more than Stalin, and yet I don't see you blaming him for that. Also, if not for that appeasement policy, the Hitler might have decided to attack earlier than he did in real life, and that would have ended pretty badly for Soviet Union (Moscow, Leningrad taken in the initial push)
4) And yet enough people survived to fall back and form the front in the end, anyway. And the german forces were delayed enough. As many of high german command people show in their memoirs, they were behind the plan since day 1.
5) People like that would have joined Nazis regardless.

It seems that you somehow think that USSR had won the war not because, but despite the Stalin's efforts. I wonder what have you read to make that weird opinion.

1) Only a very few people Stalin purged were "Revolution In Every Country" advocates, primarily Trotsky and company. Most were simply people who advocated things Stalin didn't like or were potential threats. Was Tukhachevsky a Trotskyite? Were Zinoviev, Kamenev, Rykov and Bukharin Trotskyites?
2) I don't think you know what the territorial army was, but it served its purpose quite effectively while it was in existence. Actually, it's a bit weird that you'd be completely ignorant of such an important body, considering it constituted the bulk of the Red Army at one point, but then I hear the Russian education system has been taken over by former members of the organs so I guess it's not so weird.
3) Perhaps appeasement was a reasonable idea in the 30s, when Hitler had some connection with reality, but Stalin gave Hitler war materials well after everyone involved knew that he was planning an invasion. There were trains loaded with raw materials going across the border just as the Germans began their attack. It didn't even deter Hitler; it made him think the Soviet Union was weak and an easy target.
4) The stupid counterattacks were sufficiently devastating to Soviet manpower that such counteroffensive were basically unfeasible from 1943 onwards, whereupon the Red Army began adopting doctrines that had been advocated by now-purged former commanders. I also take it you have no relatives that died relatively pointless deaths in isolated counteroffensives.
5) They actually joined specifically because of measures Stalin put into place. For example, if you were surrounded by the Germans, you were expected to stand and die rather than punch through the encirclement to friendly forces (this is what happened to "grand traitor" Andrei Vlasov, who launched one of the few successful counteroffensives, discovered the forces on his wings were not so fortunate, and was promptly encircled and had his forced wiped out). You were expected to never make a retreat and instead constantly attack, even if you knew full well that an attack would be pointless. You were expected to kill yourself rather than surrender, and if you somehow were "rescued" by the Red Army you would either be imprisoned/executed on the spot (more likely from 1941-1942) or at the very least vetted by the NKVD/SMERSH and have a good chance of being imprisoned/executed on the spot ('43 onwards). Given these facts, it isn't so surprising that PoWs would consider siding with the Germans on occasion, and that's ignoring the various peoples Stalin persecuted specifically like Ukrainians, Kalmyks and Cossacks.

So yeah, I'd say that the USSR won despite Stalin, specifically through a combination of titanic effort from the Soviet people and through the incompetence of the Nazis (Hitler was just as delusional as Stalin was, and his brutal policies relating to the East prevented the creation of anti-Soviet militias that would have easily won the war for him). The only good thing Stalin did was generally get out of the way come 1943.
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Reelya

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9541 on: August 24, 2014, 10:27:18 am »

Chamberlain gets an unfair rap, he tried to appease Hitler, yes, but England probably would have been crushed by the Germans had they declared war any earlier. It was close as it was, and Germany had many years headstart on re-armament that England did not.

Remember that neither the USA or USSR were on Britain's side at the time ... it was just France and England. And the English decided quite rightly that the French were going to be useless. Britain also had NO chance of steamrolling over Germany before that, they needed time to produce enough fighters just to maintain a defense.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/6062452/Neville-Chamberlain-should-be-praised-not-buried.html

Chamberlain did actually make quite extensive preparations for the war, and delaying as long as possible it was clever, and was what the military advised him to do. They just weren't ready in 1938 to fight the Germans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain%27s_European_Policy#Preparations_for_war

The Spitfire fighter was only entering service at the end of 1938, and they were a very important plane for the defence against the Luftwaffe. The Battle of Britain fought 1-2 years earlier (say, because of Czechoslovakia) could have been a lot different.

Anyway, Chamberlain had only been in power for 2 years at the time the war actually started. If England wasn't ready to fight soon enough, then the fault entirely lies with the guys in the top job before him.

Also, blame of Chamberlain and praise of Chruchill is a bit at odds with the facts:
http://www.historynet.com/winston-churchills-prewar-effort-to-increase-military-spending.htm
Quote
Churchill was not an unregenerate defender of high defense budgets. He had played a major role in developing the infamous ten-year rule in the early 1920s, which required that military budget estimates be based on the assumption that Britain would not be in a major war in the next ten years. The result was the general rundown of Britain's defense industries, as well as its military services.
Churchill had had a lot of influence and a big impact with reducing English military spending in the 20's and 30's, so he's more to blame than Chamberlain for the state of military unpreparedness.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 11:12:42 am by Reelya »
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9542 on: August 24, 2014, 11:06:57 am »

Quick OT question for the Russians: Do you know any children's toy that could be made from a spent shotgun shell and some other stuff? We have some parts lying around, and are wondering how they fit together. Apparently a Russian colleague of my father gave it to us as a present for us kids.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9543 on: August 24, 2014, 11:08:45 am »

So I looked at what this "territorial army" thing was and it appears that it was just simply a way to train a lot of soldiers with less effort. However, from here (in russian, translated by google):

"But in 1934 - 1935 years the military policy changed and three quarters of all the divisions have become cadre ones. In 1939 compared to 1930, the number of artillery increased by 7 times, including anti-tank and tank - 70 times ... Number of tanks from 1934 to 1939 grew by 2.5 times, in 1939 compared to 1930 year the total number of aircraft increased 6.5 times."

So this "territorial army" actually didn't have much military hardware!
I maintain my statement that a territorial army would get defeated by Nazis quite fast.

Quick OT question for the Russians: Do you know any children's toy that could be made from a spent shotgun shell and some other stuff? We have some parts lying around, and are wondering how they fit together. Apparently a Russian colleague of my father gave it to us as a present for us kids.
Hell if I know, I haven't seen a single shell in my life.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9544 on: August 24, 2014, 11:29:32 am »

Quick OT question for the Russians: Do you know any children's toy that could be made from a spent shotgun shell and some other stuff? We have some parts lying around, and are wondering how they fit together. Apparently a Russian colleague of my father gave it to us as a present for us kids.

I'm obviously not Russian but if you take a photo of the parts maybe we can help. I used to play with spent shotgun shells when I was a boy.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9545 on: August 24, 2014, 12:26:59 pm »

DNR forces in Donetsk have celebrated the Ukrainian Independence Day by parading Ukrainian POWs around the city centre, in an allusion to the parade of Nazi German POWs in Moscow in 1944.

Video, recorded on a potato.

(Russian language link) Also, on the 26th of August, the capital of Belarus Minsk will host another round of diplomatic negotiations. Representatives of EU, Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus will be in attendance.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 12:30:50 pm by Guardian G.I. »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9546 on: August 24, 2014, 12:37:28 pm »

DNR forces in Donetsk have commemorated Ukrainian Independence Day by parading Ukrainian POWs around the city centre, in an allusion to the parade of Nazi German POWs in Moscow in 1944.

Most of guys there are not Ukrainian Soldiers but simply male hostages
Spoiler: And.... (click to show/hide)


Speaking about Minsk conference
If my google-translate decoding skills don't fail me, Merkel said that Ukraine should "not damage Russian interests"
Spoiler: German Text (click to show/hide)


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MarcAFK

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9547 on: August 24, 2014, 12:38:16 pm »

That's probably against some rule of the Geneva convention, then again they're separatist rebels so they never signed anything....
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9548 on: August 24, 2014, 12:39:55 pm »

That's probably against some rule of the Geneva convention, then again they're separatist rebels so they never signed anything....

Unless of course they are Russian troops that "are not really there", in which case we have an official "complex situation"TM

Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9549 on: August 24, 2014, 12:46:58 pm »

Spoiler: German Text (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Rough translation (click to show/hide)

I don't have a camera at the moment. It's really just a spent shotgun shell and a hollow textile cylinder of the same diameter with a picture on the outside.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9550 on: August 24, 2014, 12:51:09 pm »

Drill a hole in it and wear it as a talisman of shotgun blessing.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9551 on: August 24, 2014, 01:39:35 pm »

:|
That's not a toy!
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9552 on: August 24, 2014, 01:51:32 pm »

Why not? I mean it is spent, isn't it? It's not like it is going to explode.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9553 on: August 24, 2014, 02:20:38 pm »

That's the point in having nukes: enough (500+) of them coupled with intercontinental ballistic missiles as the delivery method make you a superpower by definition (a better definition of superpower would be a country which can destroy all other countries simultaneously).
Nuclear weapons are only meaningful as a deterrent for attack. And even then they're not absolutely necessary. I mean, many smaller nations make asymmetrical warfare a touchstone of their grand strategy precisely because the prospect of an unprofitable, expensive war is a fairly good deterrent too.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9554 on: August 24, 2014, 02:35:17 pm »

That's the point in having nukes: enough (500+) of them coupled with intercontinental ballistic missiles as the delivery method make you a superpower by definition (a better definition of superpower would be a country which can destroy all other countries simultaneously).
Nuclear weapons are only meaningful as a deterrent for attack. And even then they're not absolutely necessary. I mean, many smaller nations make asymmetrical warfare a touchstone of their grand strategy precisely because the prospect of an unprofitable, expensive war is a fairly good deterrent too.
Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan... Would have these countries been invaded as they did in RL if they have had a nuclear deterrent? Hell no.
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