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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1778517 times)

GreatJustice

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9510 on: August 23, 2014, 04:53:50 pm »

I guess he means that Eastern Europe was basically economically enslaved by Western Europe to produce raw materials for their economy.

EDIT: Although I would not agree with that part very much, at least in Russian case it was the Russian aristocracy physically enslaving 90% of Russian populace. And after the Nikolai II has shot a multi-thousand peace procession, the people of Russia has seen that they cannot rely on a tzar to protect them from corrupt aristocracy. Thus, the Great October Socialistic Revolution.

The USSR may have been the first to launch a satellite, but as Ukrainian Ranger correctly judged it's only really good for dick waving nationalism. The USSR could have spent some of that money on improving living standards in a few of the many oblasts and Republics that had people living in medieval conditions. Tajikistan is an example.

Of course, USSR may have spend all those money on peaceful applications! And it would get bombed into the ground around 50s-60s by NATO aggressors, because they really wanted to do that. End result: much, much worse than in real life.

And:
Again: It happened in the ending days of Russian Empire, where 90% of population were forever locked in a class of "serfs" and part of them were even worse, forced to work at factories in a country with no anti-capitalistic forces in play.

Consider that, and then consider the fact that in 30-35 years after that, the Russia became one of only two world's superpowers and were the first country to launch a satellite into space. The first!
Yep. Russia was first to launch satellite (thank another Ukrainian, Korolyov) so what? It was never used in a proper way, It had  close to zero commercial use, unlike Western countries that used it for wellbeing of its citizens (and profit, but that is how market economy works)
If Russia have had the kind of resources the USA have access to, we would do that too. Alas, the USA has never seen a real war on it's territory and thus, had a gigantic head-start on Russia.

For all the problems the Tsars caused, they were never anywhere near as damaging to their nation as Stalin. I mean, the USSR in the 1920s and 30s was easily the strongest nation in the world by a long shot, with the world's most advanced military equipment, some very excellent generals (eg. Tukhachevsky), a massive population, and lots of natural resources. Under pretty much anyone else, the USSR should have rolled over Germany without too much problem, but under Stalin many, many people died because he purged the best commanders the USSR had and many more died because from 1941-43 he refused to believe that the Red Army needed to fight defensively.

Anyhow, the USSR was certainly a superpower after WW2, and after Stalin wasn't a terrible place to be, but the fact is that Russia was pretty much the only country capable of Communism at all, and it only barely functioned under such a system. I mean, under a capitalistic system from 1917 onwards (and the Tsars were basically irrelevant after that point anyway, they weren't going to retake power after the disaster of Nicholas II), Russia would have easily been capable of rivaling the US in nearly every field, if what was achieved in the brief periods of relative freedom demonstrated. Instead, Russia received 35 years of terror followed by 35 years of stagnation in everything except military hardware.
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9511 on: August 23, 2014, 04:57:46 pm »

I guess he means that Eastern Europe was basically economically enslaved by Western Europe to produce raw materials for their economy.

EDIT: Although I would not agree with that part very much, at least in Russian case it was the Russian aristocracy physically enslaving 90% of Russian populace. And after the Nikolai II has shot a multi-thousand peace procession, the people of Russia has seen that they cannot rely on a tzar to protect them from corrupt aristocracy. Thus, the Great October Socialistic Revolution.

The USSR may have been the first to launch a satellite, but as Ukrainian Ranger correctly judged it's only really good for dick waving nationalism. The USSR could have spent some of that money on improving living standards in a few of the many oblasts and Republics that had people living in medieval conditions. Tajikistan is an example.

Of course, USSR may have spend all those money on peaceful applications! And it would get bombed into the ground around 50s-60s by NATO aggressors, because they really wanted to do that. End result: much, much worse than in real life.

And:
Again: It happened in the ending days of Russian Empire, where 90% of population were forever locked in a class of "serfs" and part of them were even worse, forced to work at factories in a country with no anti-capitalistic forces in play.

Consider that, and then consider the fact that in 30-35 years after that, the Russia became one of only two world's superpowers and were the first country to launch a satellite into space. The first!
Yep. Russia was first to launch satellite (thank another Ukrainian, Korolyov) so what? It was never used in a proper way, It had  close to zero commercial use, unlike Western countries that used it for wellbeing of its citizens (and profit, but that is how market economy works)
If Russia have had the kind of resources the USA have access to, we would do that too. Alas, the USA has never seen a real war on it's territory and thus, had a gigantic head-start on Russia.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
Shortly afterwards, we built the Transcontinental Railroad.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9512 on: August 23, 2014, 05:04:39 pm »

GreatJustice, great post

Sadly, most Russians fail to understand that 1920s USSR was a superpower and believe in the "Stalin turned weak country into a superpower" myth
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9513 on: August 23, 2014, 05:15:07 pm »

I mean, the USSR in the 1920s and 30s was easily the strongest nation in the world by a long shot, with the world's most advanced military equipment, some very excellent generals (eg. Tukhachevsky), a massive population, and lots of natural resources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War

1920s USSR wasn't a superpower in the matter of sense that it could not even beat Poland, much less the entire rest of the world.

"strongest nation in the world" my ass.

The rest of your analysis falls the same way.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War
Shortly afterwards, we built the Transcontinental Railroad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_War
Shortly afterwards, we built this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Siberian_Railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_world_war
Shortly afterwards, we built the first satellite.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 05:19:09 pm by Sergarr »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9514 on: August 23, 2014, 05:18:31 pm »

1920s are broader than 1921 year :)
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9515 on: August 23, 2014, 05:21:54 pm »

USSR was still industrializing and electrifying in 1920s, And in (edit)early-to-middle(/edit) 1930s. It was a long arduous process, which required a lot of effort. Like taking grain from the farmers by governmental decrees. It's not something you can do in a space of 7-8 years.
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martinuzz

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9516 on: August 23, 2014, 05:28:32 pm »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_War
Even in the middle of it, the Netherlands made Gouda cheese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_world_war
Even Hitler couldn't stop us from making Gouda cheese.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9517 on: August 23, 2014, 05:35:25 pm »

What had USSR in 1925....

1) One of the largest populations in the world and largest territory
2) Reasonably Well developed railroad network
3) A lot of fertile land
4) A LOT of coal and iron ore. Enough oil. Many other resources
5) Large, battle-hardened army
6) Groups of influence in most countries (communists)

If that is not enough to be considered a major power, I don't know what is....
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9518 on: August 23, 2014, 05:51:15 pm »

A major power and a superpower are two different things. To be a superpower, you need to be able to defeat all other non-superpower countries simultaneously. USSR in 1925 wasn't capable of doing that. At all. If it could, the world-wide red revolution would have started.
Spoiler: boring demographics (click to show/hide)

Don't forget that USSR had no external allies, except for those communist parties, which were actively being suppressed.
Also don't forget that most of USSR land is hardly suitable for human live.

So, major power? Yes, definitely. But superpower? No.

USSR has only became a superpower after 30 years, after industrialization, electrification, and a massive war on it's own territory.
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scrdest

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9519 on: August 23, 2014, 06:09:19 pm »

I mean, the USSR in the 1920s and 30s was easily the strongest nation in the world by a long shot, with the world's most advanced military equipment, some very excellent generals (eg. Tukhachevsky), a massive population, and lots of natural resources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War

1920s USSR wasn't a superpower in the matter of sense that it could not even beat Poland, much less the entire rest of the world.

"strongest nation in the world" my ass.

The decisive battle of the Polish-Soviet War, the Battle of Vistula, was explicitly (originally derisively) called a 'miracle'. It was a Polish victory, but by the skin of our teeth.

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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9520 on: August 23, 2014, 06:22:13 pm »

To be a superpower, you need to be able to defeat all other non-superpower countries simultaneously.
Bad definition. The mathematician in me now wants to claim that all countries are superpowers.

More seriously, by that definition there were never any superpowers. Imagine the post-WWII simultaneously invading South America, Western Europe, India, Japan, Australia, China... Same thing goes for the US, even post-1989.
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9521 on: August 23, 2014, 06:31:40 pm »

To be a superpower, you need to be able to defeat all other non-superpower countries simultaneously.
Bad definition. The mathematician in me now wants to claim that all countries are superpowers.

More seriously, by that definition there were never any superpowers. Imagine the post-WWII simultaneously invading South America, Western Europe, India, Japan, Australia, China... Same thing goes for the US, even post-1989.

Even now, the US wouldn't be able to take on the whole world at once, simultaneously, with or without nukes.
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GrizzlyAdamz

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9522 on: August 23, 2014, 07:20:25 pm »

To be a superpower, you need to be able to defeat all other non-superpower countries simultaneously.
Bad definition. The mathematician in me now wants to claim that all countries are superpowers.

More seriously, by that definition there were never any superpowers. Imagine the post-WWII simultaneously invading South America, Western Europe, India, Japan, Australia, China... Same thing goes for the US, even post-1989.

Even now, the US wouldn't be able to take on the whole world at once, simultaneously, without nukes.

ftfy
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lordcooper

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9523 on: August 23, 2014, 07:27:59 pm »

To be a superpower, you need to be able to defeat all other non-superpower countries simultaneously.
Bad definition. The mathematician in me now wants to claim that all countries are superpowers.

More seriously, by that definition there were never any superpowers. Imagine the post-WWII simultaneously invading South America, Western Europe, India, Japan, Australia, China... Same thing goes for the US, even post-1989.

Even now, the US wouldn't be able to take on the whole world at once, simultaneously, without nukes.

ftfy

Eh.  It'd end in a draw.  An absolutely horrendous draw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_War
Even in the middle of it, the Netherlands made Gouda cheese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_world_war
Even Hitler couldn't stop us from making Gouda cheese.

And the world thanks you for it.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #9524 on: August 23, 2014, 07:28:43 pm »

That's the point in having nukes: enough (500+) of them coupled with intercontinental ballistic missiles as the delivery method make you a superpower by definition (a better definition of superpower would be a country which can destroy all other countries simultaneously).

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