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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1778564 times)

GreatJustice

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8190 on: July 25, 2014, 02:07:48 pm »

The Soviet system was exceptionally good when it came to wartime production and efficiency, but its worth mentioning that it required superhuman effort on the part of the Soviet workers as well as massive sacrifices that pretty much no one else at the time would have been willing to accept. Part of what helped the Soviet effort also was the fact that the Great Purge basically went on hold, since the NKVD was at the front focused on dealing with the Germans rather than going after "kulaks" and politically suspect managers, so there was comparatively a lot more freedom for people so long as their work contributed towards the war effort (in contrast to the German system, where pretty much everyone was jockeying for power).
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8191 on: July 25, 2014, 02:08:08 pm »

And people to eliminate corrupt and self-interested administrators.

The liquidation of these people by Khrushchev is IMHO one of main reasons why USSR has self-destructed.
(he has basically banned KGB from jailing high-rank communist administrators without agreement from the counsel of said administrators.)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 02:10:23 pm by Sergarr »
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Reelya

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8192 on: July 25, 2014, 02:31:37 pm »

The "War Economy" is basically communism. Well, more like fascism to tell the truth since your printing money to buy stuff from private enterprise.

People like to talk about the period where the USSR fell apart, the mid 70's - 1990. But they neglect the decades before that when whatever they were doing took the USSR from an agrarian backwater to a world industrial power with 60% the GDP of the USA (by 1970). And they had way more crap happen to them in that period than the USA did. So they were fairly successful in many regards.

The crap really hit the fan when they brought in price controls to try and curb inflation in the mid 70's. That causes shortages (there are still people with money, but goods are now artificially cheap, so they get bought out, emptying stores). It's not specific to communism. It's happened many times the same way, but there's an ideological drive to blame all the problems on an abstract notion of "the communist system" rather than specific policy decisions that have predictable effects.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 02:40:24 pm by Reelya »
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8193 on: July 25, 2014, 03:10:41 pm »


Soviet production was certainly focused on different areas thanks to Lend Lease and the strategic bombing of Germany, yet both of these factors are overblown considering the fact that the Soviets still outproduced the Germans in nearly every aspect from 1940 to 1942, while Lend Lease and serious strategic bombing only had significant effects by around 1944.

To go into a bit more detail with regards to Lend Lease, the Soviets mainly received three main things from the Americans: locomotives, food, and jeeps/trucks. Locomotives are often brought up as a major contribution, but they actually were largely unnecessary; as a result of the German advance, most of the extended Soviet rail lines were occupied, yet most of the locomotives the Soviets had before the war were safely evacuated along with other industrial materials. So the Soviets were sitting on a pile of trains that they couldn't use, in amounts that dwarfed what the Americans sent over, and by the time the American locomotives were at all useful the Germans were basically beaten anyway. Food was useful, but the food supplied was insufficient to feed the Red Army for even a few months, and thus was a minor benefit at best. The arrival of jeeps and trucks was the most helpful part of Lend Lease, but they almost all arrived after 1944, so that doesn't explain the superiority of Soviet production before that time.

Anyhow, in terms of the air war, the Soviets still outproduced the Germans, with their main problems being (A) inferior plane designs and (B) a lack of experienced pilots. The first problem was largely solved after 1943 when the Yak-9 and Yak-3 became the common Soviet fighter planes, while the second became less of an issue over the course of the war as Soviet pilots became more experienced. By the end of the war, Soviet fighters were generally superior to those fielded by the Luftwaffe, so even the air war would be won by the Soviets.

The soviet air quality advantage in the late war didn't just happen on it's own.  80% of the german plane deployments and losses were in the west.  If you remove the west from the equation you are talking about a soviet airforce that would be completely inadequate.  The Yak planes were good planes but they only built ~20k of them compared to hundreds of thousands of allied planes.  The Il-2 was a great plane but it would have been limited to nighttime bombings if the western allies hadn't forced the Germans to cede air superiority.

1940-1942 isn't a good metric to judge production efficiency by.  The numbers are low and the Soviets are still mostly making obsolete designs.  The Germans are still churning out a fair amount of obsolete equipment for that matter.  It's mostly just talking about the fact that in '42 the Soviets production of T-34s skyrockets and they make 4 times as many as the past years combined.  The Soviets only produce more tanks in '40 if you count light tanks like T-26 and Panzer II.  The Soviets production of medium+heavy is only slightly ahead in '41.  The Germans underestimated the Soviets and are slower to ramp up production to their full potential.

And no, the Soviets weren't sitting on a pile of trains they couldn't use.  Soviet production system was entirely redesigned around their limited train supplies.  For instance the number of manhours that happened under the factory roof for a T-34 was 5 times as high as the hours put into a M-4 on site because the Soviets couldn't afford to ship parts around like the Americans could.  If the Soviets hadn't been getting allied trucks and trains they wouldn't have been able to shift their train and vehicle production and still get supplies at the front.  Production doesn't turn on a dime like in a videogame.  Shifting lend lease from war goods to industrial goods was a deliberate decision not a mistake.

Although the Soviets were a little more committed to mobalization the soviets simply would not have had a production advantage if it weren't for the western front.  After '42 the Soviet population was smaller and less industrialized.  The simply could not win a production contest on a level playing field.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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GreatJustice

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8194 on: July 25, 2014, 04:11:48 pm »


Soviet production was certainly focused on different areas thanks to Lend Lease and the strategic bombing of Germany, yet both of these factors are overblown considering the fact that the Soviets still outproduced the Germans in nearly every aspect from 1940 to 1942, while Lend Lease and serious strategic bombing only had significant effects by around 1944.

To go into a bit more detail with regards to Lend Lease, the Soviets mainly received three main things from the Americans: locomotives, food, and jeeps/trucks. Locomotives are often brought up as a major contribution, but they actually were largely unnecessary; as a result of the German advance, most of the extended Soviet rail lines were occupied, yet most of the locomotives the Soviets had before the war were safely evacuated along with other industrial materials. So the Soviets were sitting on a pile of trains that they couldn't use, in amounts that dwarfed what the Americans sent over, and by the time the American locomotives were at all useful the Germans were basically beaten anyway. Food was useful, but the food supplied was insufficient to feed the Red Army for even a few months, and thus was a minor benefit at best. The arrival of jeeps and trucks was the most helpful part of Lend Lease, but they almost all arrived after 1944, so that doesn't explain the superiority of Soviet production before that time.

Anyhow, in terms of the air war, the Soviets still outproduced the Germans, with their main problems being (A) inferior plane designs and (B) a lack of experienced pilots. The first problem was largely solved after 1943 when the Yak-9 and Yak-3 became the common Soviet fighter planes, while the second became less of an issue over the course of the war as Soviet pilots became more experienced. By the end of the war, Soviet fighters were generally superior to those fielded by the Luftwaffe, so even the air war would be won by the Soviets.

The soviet air quality advantage in the late war didn't just happen on it's own.  80% of the german plane deployments and losses were in the west.  If you remove the west from the equation you are talking about a soviet airforce that would be completely inadequate.  The Yak planes were good planes but they only built ~20k of them compared to hundreds of thousands of allied planes.  The Il-2 was a great plane but it would have been limited to nighttime bombings if the western allies hadn't forced the Germans to cede air superiority.

1940-1942 isn't a good metric to judge production efficiency by.  The numbers are low and the Soviets are still mostly making obsolete designs.  The Germans are still churning out a fair amount of obsolete equipment for that matter.  It's mostly just talking about the fact that in '42 the Soviets production of T-34s skyrockets and they make 4 times as many as the past years combined.  The Soviets only produce more tanks in '40 if you count light tanks like T-26 and Panzer II.  The Soviets production of medium+heavy is only slightly ahead in '41.  The Germans underestimated the Soviets and are slower to ramp up production to their full potential.

And no, the Soviets weren't sitting on a pile of trains they couldn't use.  Soviet production system was entirely redesigned around their limited train supplies.  For instance the number of manhours that happened under the factory roof for a T-34 was 5 times as high as the hours put into a M-4 on site because the Soviets couldn't afford to ship parts around like the Americans could.  If the Soviets hadn't been getting allied trucks and trains they wouldn't have been able to shift their train and vehicle production and still get supplies at the front.  Production doesn't turn on a dime like in a videogame.  Shifting lend lease from war goods to industrial goods was a deliberate decision not a mistake.

Although the Soviets were a little more committed to mobalization the soviets simply would not have had a production advantage if it weren't for the western front.  After '42 the Soviet population was smaller and less industrialized.  The simply could not win a production contest on a level playing field.

The Soviets wouldn't necessarily win the air war in absolute terms like the Allies were able to, with the capability to strategically bomb Germany at will, but they certainly would be more than capable of defeating the Germans in the manner they had previously, when necessary to support ground offensives. They proved themselves more than capable of this from 1943 onwards.

Soviet production of obsolete equipment was higher in the early years, but this was more due to issues with the reorganization of the Red Army than with inherent Soviet production problems. Specifically, the Soviet Union had invested heavily in military equipment in the past, but that meant that the Red Army was state of the art in 1934. Many issues were noted with both equipment and the command structure due to the Winter War, so the Soviet forces were completely restructured in 1940, with the expected end of this restructuring to occur in 1942. However, in 1941, when the Germans attacked, the Soviets were not even remotely organized yet, which is part of why Stalin was unwilling to even consider the possibility of a German attack at the time. Meanwhile, the fact of the matter is that the bulk of Soviet land was still occupied, and yet they outproduced the Germans at the time, with quality being made up for well before the major counterattacks of 1943 onwards. Further, while the Germans were slower to completely ramp up production for war, there was a point at which both sides were completely geared for war (around 1943-44), yet there was no point at which the Germans reached production parity with the Soviets, not to mention the fact that Soviet pre-war production outpaced German production too.

I'll admit to say that the Soviets weren't using the locomotives they had was an exaggeration, but they didn't suffer from serious shortages of locomotives at any point. Again, the bulk of Soviet rail was in the West, which was occupied by the Wehrmacht, while the major success of the Soviets in 1941 was the evacuation of nearly all of their industry beyond the Urals, which conveniently enough included almost all of their pre-war stock of locomotives. These same locomotives were used through the entire war, only being supplemented by American locomotives from 1944 onwards, as they were more than sufficient for Soviet logistical needs (after some restructuring of production, which was occurring regardless). Perhaps a hypothetical Soviet Union fighting on its own and reaching halfway through Poland would have required additional locomotive production to supplement the existing stock, but that is a completely different situation from what we're considering. Trucks, jeeps, etc were still extremely helpful, but again, Soviet production was not hugely affected considering that the bulk of them arrived only at the end of 1944, by which point the Soviets had long held an advantage.

The notable thing is that, while the Soviet industrial workforce was significantly smaller than that of the Germans, they still outproduced the Germans simply due to having a much, much more efficient system of production that the Germans simply weren't able to replicate. Finally, the difference in manpower was at its worst in 1942, with the Soviets workforce (and army) growing quite steadily from that point onwards, whereas the Germans had a significantly harder time replacing lost troops. From 1943 onwards, the Eastern front was pretty well characterized by steady Soviet advances and victories against German counterattacks, coupled with general improvements in the Soviet situation, so it seems unlikely that even the full might of Germany would be capable of turning things around.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 04:13:25 pm by GreatJustice »
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8195 on: July 25, 2014, 04:20:20 pm »

The "War Economy" is basically communism. Well, more like fascism to tell the truth since your printing money to buy stuff from private enterprise.

People like to talk about the period where the USSR fell apart, the mid 70's - 1990. But they neglect the decades before that when whatever they were doing took the USSR from an agrarian backwater to a world industrial power with 60% the GDP of the USA (by 1970). And they had way more crap happen to them in that period than the USA did. So they were fairly successful in many regards.

The crap really hit the fan when they brought in price controls to try and curb inflation in the mid 70's. That causes shortages (there are still people with money, but goods are now artificially cheap, so they get bought out, emptying stores). It's not specific to communism. It's happened many times the same way, but there's an ideological drive to blame all the problems on an abstract notion of "the communist system" rather than specific policy decisions that have predictable effects.
Yes, I wonder what would have happened if their had  been a communist revolution in an industrialized country, or if the system had survived long enough to allow for the computer revolution and m9dernization.
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8196 on: July 25, 2014, 04:30:43 pm »

yet there was no point at which the Germans reached production parity with the Soviets, not to mention the fact that Soviet pre-war production outpaced German production too.

The Germans outproduced the Soviets in heavy guns, in trucks, in steel, in coal, in fighters in all types of ships over the course of the entire war.  I could just as easily say the Soviets never matched the German output.

From 1943 onwards, the Eastern front was pretty well characterized by steady Soviet advances and victories against German counterattacks, coupled with general improvements in the Soviet situation, so it seems unlikely that even the full might of Germany would be capable of turning things around.

Yes the Soviets did start to do rather well at the exact same time as nearly every German plane produced went west, half of German tanks produced went west and most German heavy guns went west.  They showed a remarkable ability to suddenly start outproducing when they are only competing with a fraction of what they were before.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8197 on: July 25, 2014, 04:34:29 pm »

do i get to confirm mainiac for a burningpet-tier poster yet

i mean wow you're something
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8198 on: July 25, 2014, 04:40:34 pm »

I have yet to figure out what the heck you are.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8199 on: July 25, 2014, 05:12:57 pm »

I really, really don't like the Olympics or the Commonwealth Games or any of that nonsense but at least this happened at the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow. Dan Wallace won Scotland's third gold in some kind of swimming thing and shouted something special after winning.
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GreatJustice

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8200 on: July 25, 2014, 05:36:42 pm »

yet there was no point at which the Germans reached production parity with the Soviets, not to mention the fact that Soviet pre-war production outpaced German production too.

The Germans outproduced the Soviets in heavy guns, in trucks, in steel, in coal, in fighters in all types of ships over the course of the entire war.  I could just as easily say the Soviets never matched the German output.

Come on now, you know full well that that's basically nitpicking, but if you insist

>heavy guns

Do you mean this in the sense of artillery? To my understanding, the Soviets prioritized production of lighter, more mobile artillery (eg. the extremely effective Katyusha) over heavier artillery, not in the least because they were pretty much fighting a mobile, offensive war after 1942.

>trucks

There are a lot of points to be made here, but the most obvious is that the Germans had to replace trucks far more often due to losses from partisan attacks and so on which the Soviets didn't really have to deal with in the same way. The partisan war is actually another point in the Soviets' favour, since German supply lines were constantly harried by ambushes and occupation forces were required throughout their empire to prevent uprisings, whereas the Soviet populace was generally united against the Germans (not because of loyalty to Stalin or the principles of Socialism, mind, but because Hitler did an excellent job massacring potential allies and puppets in 1941). Thanks for bringing that back to memory!

>steel/coal

Raw materials which the Soviets had in sufficient abundance such that additional production was unnecessary. Which also reminds me, the Germans suffered from shortages of oil, something that they prioritized the Southern front specifically to acquire from the Soviets and failed to do, so there's another weakness that Germany would face in a war of attrition even without the Western front.

>fighters

Ho hum, the production of fighters for both sides was modified because (A) the Germans were trying to prevent the Allies from bombing them once strategic bombing became more commonplace and (B) Soviet military doctrine really didn't have a massive emphasis on strategic air superiority the way the German or American doctrines did, and thus didn't require as many fighters. This is almost like the "Soviets didn't produce ships" argument

>Ships

Really now, I even specifically pointed this one out! The Soviets had no reason to produce significant amounts of ships since their only use was for transportation and protection of Lend Lease materials. Even during the Siege of Leningrad, the famous relief came from an ice road, not ships! This is like saying that Communism is a superior economic system to Capitalism because the Soviets produced more concrete!
Yes the Soviets did start to do rather well at the exact same time as nearly every German plane produced went west, half of German tanks produced went west and most German heavy guns went west.  They showed a remarkable ability to suddenly start outproducing when they are only competing with a fraction of what they were before.

Okay, now you're conflating industrial production with military success. Soviet production was relocated across the Urals, it was not significantly affected by military victories or defeats until near the end of the war, and German production was not predicated on factories located outside Smolensk. The Soviets outproduced the Germans in every meaningful sense through the entire war, with or without Western assistance. Further, they won once they reorganized even before the relocation of German war assets to the west, if less overwhelmingly and quickly. I mean, if the Germans were capable of beating the Soviets on even terms, they would have done so in 1941-42 when basically everything they had was on the Eastern front and they had no significant pressures from the West, but they failed to do so and even lost ground during that time.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8201 on: July 25, 2014, 05:45:11 pm »

mainiac is losing a debate

my heart is filled with joy

(meanwhile the Ukrainian goverment have not yet passed the resignation of Yatsenyuk and many, many of the necessary laws... they're going to be in real trouble soon, money for military salaries runs out on 1 August)
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Dutchling

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8202 on: July 25, 2014, 05:49:45 pm »

Quote
It's not hard to imagine the Nazis winning without the Soviets having (western) Allied support.

^ You wrote this. Which implies that the western support tipped the balance. My reply was: it wasn't that close. The Russians mobilized twice the manpower as the German did on the Eastern Front. It was 3 million to 5 million at the start of Stalingrad, and 3 million to 6 million by the end.

about 2/3rds of the German forces were on the Eastern Front, so even with no Western powers to guard against, Russia still had more dudes.
Oh, jeez, the Russians had more soldiers? These radical new facts really change how I view history. Would have never have guessed that.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8203 on: July 25, 2014, 05:50:41 pm »

On the other hand, if not for American/English involvement wouldn't there have been a good chance Russia would have been fighting a multi-front war? Sure, Russia could have taken Germany - could they have taken Germany AND Italy AND Japen if all three of them were focused on fighting Russia alone?

At the very least I think things would have gone on a lot longer and theres a very real chance Russia would have gotten beat.
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Sindain

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #8204 on: July 25, 2014, 05:57:23 pm »

Would Japan even be in the war?

The way I understand it Japan was pretty much allied to Germany just cause they both hated 'Murica, and iirc Russia wasn't even at war with Japan until the very end.
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