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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1783557 times)

Digital Hellhound

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3255 on: January 16, 2014, 11:36:15 am »

If you're embracing a culture and nationality, you should do it for both good and bad. I can accept the 'why should I feel guilty?' argument if you also go with 'why should I feel any pride/anything?'. If you think of yourself as belonging to the same culture/nationality as those ancestors, yes, you should remember the bad stuff they did and not just handwave them away as having nothing to do with you.

If you don't give a shit, then fair enough, you shouldn't feel any guilt or pride, or anything. ANYTHING.
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Russia is simply taking an anti-Fascist stance against European Nazi products, they should be applauded. ˇNo parmesan!

aenri

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3256 on: January 16, 2014, 11:46:20 am »

Is one generation all that is needed, then? Tell me.

Of course it is. Being ashamed for things you had no chance to affect? Bullshit if you ask me.

Are you ashamed when your neighbour steals something? I wouldn't be and have no moral obligation to be.

I don't agree with you that it is an exoneration for crimes in past, if people today don't feel guilt for them. The only people who should feel any guilt for those crimes are the people who commited them.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 11:48:29 am by aenri »
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Descan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3257 on: January 16, 2014, 11:51:09 am »

I think you should feel ashamed of an ancestor who did horrible things. But then, you should feel ashamed of anyone who does or did horrible things.
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Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
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Descan confirmed for antichrist.
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Comrade P.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3258 on: January 16, 2014, 11:54:29 am »

If you're embracing a culture and nationality, you should do it for both good and bad. I can accept the 'why should I feel guilty?' argument if you also go with 'why should I feel any pride/anything?'. If you think of yourself as belonging to the same culture/nationality as those ancestors, yes, you should remember the bad stuff they did and not just handwave them away as having nothing to do with you.

If you don't give a shit, then fair enough, you shouldn't feel any guilt or pride, or anything. ANYTHING.

I wanted to write an answer myself, but now I can only agree with this man.

A question for those who are in this thread longer than me - how much times this thread has been Godwin'd?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 12:01:29 pm by Comrade P. »
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Sigs

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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3259 on: January 16, 2014, 12:00:46 pm »

I think you should feel ashamed of an ancestor who did horrible things. But then, you should feel ashamed of anyone who does or did horrible things.

But, but that's white guilt!
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Dutchling

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3260 on: January 16, 2014, 12:01:47 pm »

I think you should feel ashamed of an ancestor who did horrible things. But then, you should feel ashamed of anyone who does or did horrible things.
Sounds like you spend most of your days (and nights) feeling ashamed of people you don't even know exist :P
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3261 on: January 16, 2014, 12:03:38 pm »

I think you should feel ashamed of an ancestor who did horrible things. But then, you should feel ashamed of anyone who does or did horrible things.
Sounds like you spend most of your days (and nights) feeling ashamed of people you don't even know exist :P

You're telling me you've never considered that maybe you should judge people in the past in the same way you judge people now, by their actions?
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I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
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aenri

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3262 on: January 16, 2014, 12:08:38 pm »

I think you should feel ashamed of an ancestor who did horrible things. But then, you should feel ashamed of anyone who does or did horrible things.
Sounds like you spend most of your days (and nights) feeling ashamed of people you don't even know exist :P

You're telling me you've never considered that maybe you should judge people in the past in the same way you judge people now, by their actions?

But judging people and being ashamed of them are not really the same thing?
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3263 on: January 16, 2014, 12:18:47 pm »

Even if they were your ancestors, it shouldn't matter for you what have they done. If my grandfather had been an officer of SS, should I be ashamed or proud of him? Should I look at some guy with scorn, because I know his father was an agent of KGB?

These are your primary examples of things to not feel shame for. Would you consider it a different scenario to feel ashamed of the actions of a past SS/KGB family member as opposed to judging them for their participation? Do they need to be unrelated to you to be allowed to feel ashamed of/judge their actions? I need explanation on the proper way to atone for the past atrocities.
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I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

Descan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3264 on: January 16, 2014, 12:33:38 pm »

Ashamed, judging, disappointed, bothered by, enraged by, they're all basically the same idea, if a little different.
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Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
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Descan confirmed for antichrist.
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I wonder if any of us don't love Descan.

XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3265 on: January 16, 2014, 12:51:38 pm »

I need explanation on the proper way to atone for the past atrocities.
I'm not sure there is a "proper" way. I think there is a difference between personal guilt and historic responsability. I don't feel personal guilt over Nazi crimes, since I had no chance whatsoever to influence what happened before my parents were born. I do think however that as a German I have a historic responsability to keep the memory of these crimes alive and to be aware of what happened how, and why, so that nobody can forget, deny or whitewash what happened. This is more or less institutionalized here, not necessarily as collective guilt, but as a special responsability.

On an individual level this is much more complicated. The generations younger than me have much less of a personal connection to the past than those who still knew people alive during Nazi rule. Also it is not like most people know or can know exactly what their individual ancestors did during that time, some did horrible things, some did good things, some did pretty much nothing. I try to judge my family members by what I know about them, which of course may not be the full picture.
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Dutchling

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3266 on: January 16, 2014, 12:52:42 pm »

Ashamed, judging, disappointed, bothered by, enraged by, they're all basically the same idea, if a little different.
Ashamed implies, at least to me, that the one who is ashamed also feels bad, and according to people in this thread, should feel bad.

But if you really just meant judging I  see no reason not to agree with you.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3267 on: January 16, 2014, 01:03:32 pm »

To me, "shame" only implies feeling bad if you're feeling shamed about yourself. Feeling shamed by others doesn't imply sadness, but does imply a desire to separate oneself from said person(s).
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3268 on: January 16, 2014, 01:19:26 pm »

To me, "shame" only implies feeling bad if you're feeling shamed about yourself. Feeling shamed by others doesn't imply sadness, but does imply a desire to separate oneself from said person(s).
Right. That is probably why I didn't use the word "shame". I don't feel any personal shame, but I also don't think I should entirely separate or disassociate myself from the past, since that would ultimately just be an easy excuse to no longer look into the subject.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3269 on: January 16, 2014, 02:58:12 pm »

Many Russians would argue that Russian Siberian territories are not colonies and have never been colonies. They claim that unlike the European powers, which exploited their African, American and Asian colonies for resources and enslaved or exterminated the indigenous populace, Russians never oppressed the locals and put a lot of money and resources into developing these territories, instead of simply pumping the resources out.

History is written and re-written by the victors, especially those who have had totalitarian political apparatuses in the past that could airbrush events, people and even historical nations out of existence and create them at will if the situation required it.

You will notice that few of the Native Siberians who were so very happy to be civilised by the noble Europeans sweeping through their lands actually wrote any of those history books.

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Russian expansion into Siberia didn't encounter much resistance, aside from Ermak's war with the Khanate of Sibir and occasional small skirmishes with some tribes and (later on) China. Many Siberian tribes were integrated relatively peacefully.

And yet Russian expansion into the Caucasus encountered so much resistance Russians are still being killed in 2014 over it. But lack of resistance doesn't necessarily indicate the natives wanted to be conquered, just that they couldn't do much about it.

Also:

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exterminated

Let's not go there again.

Canada could be considered colonial, not only for our treatment of the natives in the 20th century but also our control of the Inuit territories.

Pretty much every country in the New World would fit that category I think. We're looking at you, Australia.

Actually any European country that had any chance to do so did oppress someone else at some point in time.

And scandinavian countries did have colonies much more recent than viking times. At least Sweden and Denmark, Finland and Norway weren't independent at the time.

Even tiny Courland had overseas colonies.

Scotland had overseas colonies too in Panama, Eastern New Jersey, a town somewhere in the Carolinas and finally our largest and most successful ones in the Maritimes of Canada. There we oppressed the hell out of the Acadians.

When Great Britain was formed Scots were first into the fray to civilise those heathen natives and steal develop/pump money into the land and such. Our soldiers were the Crown's chief colonial enforcers and we made the best administrators. We made up the bulk of the Loyalist population during the American Revolution, hence the number of Scots in Canada. There's always that expression "the English ruled the British Empire, the Scots ran it".

I realised a while ago that a lot of my strong support of independence might actually be rooted in the terrible sense of white guilt I feel for everything we've done in the past as part of the UK. Maybe the reason why my criticism for other big, colonial empires like France, Spain, Russia etc is so strong is related to that too.

If I criticise your country's past at any point, I say this in general to anyone who reads this, please do not get offended. Usually the countries I criticise the most I like best.

The whole argument about which country is/has been the most oppressive out of all is based on a very important underlying argument - which nation/country/civilization has the right to criticize other countries?

At this point, United States, Great Britain, France, Germany and other countries of the Western world think that they are the most righteous countries in the world and that they are morally and ideologically superior to the rest of the world. No one did grant the Western world the title of paragon of virtue and the right to enforce their own political ideologies and morals around the world. Such a claim is backed solely by the military and economic power of Western countries. As the saying goes, "Might makes right".

In my opinion, however, if Russia or other country had a similarly powerful economy and military force, they would definitely proclaim themselves the most righteous countries in the world and then haughtily asserted about how virtuous they are, how awful is the life in Britain or America and how all the British or American rulers that opposed them in the past or oppose them at the moment are the scum of the earth... all the while covering up their own skeletons in their closets.
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this means that a donation of 30 dollars to a developer that did not deliver would equal 4.769*10^-14 hitlers stolen from you
that's like half a femtohitler
and that is terrible
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