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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1783620 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3240 on: January 15, 2014, 09:42:53 pm »

It reminds me of some of the really foolish relocation efforts undertaken by the big preservationist organizations over the past few decades. They'd try to force or bribe rural people in areas with endangered species to go to the cities, of course, having lived rurally for countless generations the cities turned out to be pretty bad places for them. Even worse, this did nothing to help the endangered species, they were never being endangered by the natives in the first place. Outside hunters and environment loss were responsible for most of the decline, while the natives hunting them was more visible but completely sustainable.

So yeah, that was pretty terrible. The organizations have pretty much learned their lesson these days, but the damage is done.
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Digital Hellhound

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3241 on: January 16, 2014, 12:46:02 am »

Hey now, we Finns did a fair bit of persecution of the Sami ourselves. We refuse to be your victims and will reclaim our position as a civilized, oppressing people, Owlbread.
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Russia is simply taking an anti-Fascist stance against European Nazi products, they should be applauded. ˇNo parmesan!

XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3242 on: January 16, 2014, 01:06:51 am »

Actually any European country that had any chance to do so did oppress someone else at some point in time.

And scandinavian countries did have colonies much more recent than viking times. At least Sweden and Denmark, Finland and Norway weren't independent at the time.

Even tiny Courland had overseas colonies.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3243 on: January 16, 2014, 06:10:14 am »

And let's not forget that the only nation on this planet that has managed to hold on to its colonial territories is - you guessed it - Russia!

Many Russians would argue that Russian Siberian territories are not colonies and have never been colonies. They claim that unlike the European powers, which exploited their African, American and Asian colonies for resources and enslaved or exterminated the indigenous populace, Russians never oppressed the locals and put a lot of money and resources into developing these territories, instead of simply pumping the resources out.
Russian expansion into Siberia didn't encounter much resistance, aside from Ermak's war with the Khanate of Sibir and occasional small skirmishes with some tribes and (later on) China. Many Siberian tribes were integrated relatively peacefully.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 06:13:00 am by Guardian G.I. »
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Max White

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3244 on: January 16, 2014, 06:18:44 am »

And let's not forget that the only nation on this planet that has managed to hold on to its colonial territories is - you guessed it - Russia!
So I guess Greenland just doesn't matter anymore.  :P
They always forget Greenland...

Descan

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3245 on: January 16, 2014, 09:03:36 am »

Canada could be considered colonial, not only for our treatment of the natives in the 20th century but also our control of the Inuit territories.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3246 on: January 16, 2014, 09:18:55 am »

Many Russians would argue that Russian Siberian territories are not colonies and have never been colonies. They claim that unlike the European powers, which exploited their African, American and Asian colonies for resources and enslaved or exterminated the indigenous populace, Russians never oppressed the locals and put a lot of money and resources into developing these territories, instead of simply pumping the resources out.

History is written and re-written by the victors, especially those who have had totalitarian political apparatuses in the past that could airbrush events, people and even historical nations out of existence and create them at will if the situation required it.

You will notice that few of the Native Siberians who were so very happy to be civilised by the noble Europeans sweeping through their lands actually wrote any of those history books.

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Russian expansion into Siberia didn't encounter much resistance, aside from Ermak's war with the Khanate of Sibir and occasional small skirmishes with some tribes and (later on) China. Many Siberian tribes were integrated relatively peacefully.

And yet Russian expansion into the Caucasus encountered so much resistance Russians are still being killed in 2014 over it. But lack of resistance doesn't necessarily indicate the natives wanted to be conquered, just that they couldn't do much about it.

Also:

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exterminated

Let's not go there again.

Canada could be considered colonial, not only for our treatment of the natives in the 20th century but also our control of the Inuit territories.

Pretty much every country in the New World would fit that category I think. We're looking at you, Australia.

Actually any European country that had any chance to do so did oppress someone else at some point in time.

And scandinavian countries did have colonies much more recent than viking times. At least Sweden and Denmark, Finland and Norway weren't independent at the time.

Even tiny Courland had overseas colonies.

Scotland had overseas colonies too in Panama, Eastern New Jersey, a town somewhere in the Carolinas and finally our largest and most successful ones in the Maritimes of Canada. There we oppressed the hell out of the Acadians.

When Great Britain was formed Scots were first into the fray to civilise those heathen natives and steal develop/pump money into the land and such. Our soldiers were the Crown's chief colonial enforcers and we made the best administrators. We made up the bulk of the Loyalist population during the American Revolution, hence the number of Scots in Canada. There's always that expression "the English ruled the British Empire, the Scots ran it".

I realised a while ago that a lot of my strong support of independence might actually be rooted in the terrible sense of white guilt I feel for everything we've done in the past as part of the UK. Maybe the reason why my criticism for other big, colonial empires like France, Spain, Russia etc is so strong is related to that too.

If I criticise your country's past at any point, I say this in general to anyone who reads this, please do not get offended. Usually the countries I criticise the most I like best.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 09:41:58 am by Owlbread »
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aenri

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3247 on: January 16, 2014, 10:02:04 am »

I realised a while ago that a lot of my strong support of independence might actually be rooted in the terrible sense of white guilt I feel for everything we've done in the past as part of the UK. Maybe the reason why my criticism for other big, colonial empires like France, Spain, Russia etc is so strong is related to that too.

I don't really understand such feelings of white guilt. What is the point of feeling guilt (or pride) for something that some people have done in the past? The only connecting point for you and them is being located in the vaguely same geographical area.

Even if they were your ancestors, it shouldn't matter for you what have they done. If my grandfather had been an officer of SS, should I be ashamed or proud of him? Should I look at some guy with scorn, because I know his father was an agent of KGB? Should I dislike some country because it has done in past something what is now morally unacceptable? I don't think we should beat up Germany or UK for their past.

It is all in the past and we can't really change the facts.
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Dutchling

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3248 on: January 16, 2014, 10:04:02 am »

Couldn't agree more. Feelings like that just seem entirely nonsensical to me.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3249 on: January 16, 2014, 10:04:42 am »

someone is seriously going to have to explain the concept of white guilt in detail to me

according to the idea of a global plutocracy we seemingly are enjoying, nobody should be responsible for the sins of their fathers (although the fathers could be considered a bit responsible for the sins of their sons for obvious reasons) but being of a specific country and upbringing allows you to be guilty of crimes your bloodline might have not been even associated with?

I realised a while ago that a lot of my strong support of independence might actually be rooted in the terrible sense of white guilt I feel for everything we've done in the past as part of the UK. Maybe the reason why my criticism for other big, colonial empires like France, Spain, Russia etc is so strong is related to that too.

I don't really understand such feelings of white guilt. What is the point of feeling guilt (or pride) for something that some people have done in the past? The only connecting point for you and them is being located in the vaguely same geographical area.

Even if they were your ancestors, it shouldn't matter for you what have they done. If my grandfather had been an officer of SS, should I be ashamed or proud of him? Should I look at some guy with scorn, because I know his father was an agent of KGB? Should I dislike some country because it has done in past something what is now morally unacceptable? I don't think we should beat up Germany or UK for their past.

It is all in the past and we can't really change the facts.

and then i got ninjad
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3250 on: January 16, 2014, 11:05:07 am »

Even if they were your ancestors, it shouldn't matter for you what have they done. If my grandfather had been an officer of SS, should I be ashamed or proud of him?

You should be very, very ashamed of any relative if they were in the SS, mate.
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Comrade P.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3251 on: January 16, 2014, 11:11:58 am »

Even if they were your ancestors, it shouldn't matter for you what have they done. If my grandfather had been an officer of SS, should I be ashamed or proud of him?
You should be very, very ashamed of any relative if they were in the SS, mate.

Pffft. None of my buisness, of course, but. How his long-gone ancestor's deeds affect him in present? Nothing to be proud of, of course, but ashamed...
Arnold Schwarzenegger's father served in Gestapo, and what?
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Dutchling

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3252 on: January 16, 2014, 11:13:46 am »

Yeah I'd like to know the exact amount of degrees of kinship needed to not have to feel mandatory shame....

Also this sentence is awkward as fuck.
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Comrade P.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3253 on: January 16, 2014, 11:22:10 am »

Yeah I'd like to know the exact amount of degrees of kinship needed to not have to feel mandatory shame....

Also this sentence is awkward as fuck.
The very concept of "mandatory shame" on that specific matter is somehow alien to my mind.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3254 on: January 16, 2014, 11:27:32 am »

You should be very, very ashamed of any relative if they were in the SS, mate.

Turns into "Why should I feel guilt?!" for those who wish to handwave the atrocities commited by past generations. Note I said you should be ashamed of any person in the past of your progeny or not for their crimes committed. I do not think a single person in the world is currently capable of being responsible for a majority of past-day atrocities but it does not mean we simply exonerate those who took place in the events because 'enough time' passed. So no, I'm not saying you should feel guilt. I never did. That's simply a kneejerk reaction and comes off like you're defending past actions, though.

Remember, being a man who descends from a Jewish family that fled Germany due to SS actions, and luckily avoiding the Holocaust, I have a bit of thoughts on the subject.

Yeah I'd like to know the exact amount of degrees of kinship needed to not have to feel mandatory shame....

Also this sentence is awkward as fuck.

Is one generation of recognition of past crimes all that is needed, then? Tell me.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 11:32:56 am by Mictlantecuhtli »
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