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[Ukrainian Ranger]

And how exactly are they second-class citizens?

There are atmosphere of blatant racism supported by local government, police, judges who are Russians and not care much about laws.

[Descan]

I REALLY don't like the anti abortion and anti LGBT stance of that party. Unless "Pro-family"  means something else.

Most of the other stuff is alright, except the racism. I'm alright with nationalism but I don't like the idea of kicking out non-national peoples or restricting their opportunities.

[Owlbread]

I REALLY don't like the anti abortion and anti LGBT stance of that party. Unless "Pro-family"  means something else.

Most of the other stuff is alright, except the racism. I'm alright with nationalism but I don't like the idea of kicking out non-national peoples or restricting their opportunities.

Those are the bits that I said "put it in line with the BNP in the UK" that I vehemently disagree with. There are also seemingly some Neo-Nazi elements within the party. Given the rising numbers of people in Ukraine infected with HIV/AIDS I don't think some of their more Christian-conservative views are going to help as well.

The points that I agree with Svoboda on are (to quickly take from Wikipedia for the sake of easiness)


* Ukraine is to leave the Commonwealth of Independent States "and other post-Soviet structures"

* Lustration of state authority: publication of lists of all Soviet KGB agents that served or continue to serve in Ukraine, dismissal of such people as well as members of the former Communist Party of the Soviet Union from state leadership positions, replace them with graduates of the Ukrainian universities (though I disagree with the blanket ban on all former Communist Party members, just KGB)

* Renunciation of the 2010 Kharkiv agreements

* Impeachment of President Viktor Yanukovych

* The right to keep and bear arms

* Cancelling taxes on Ukrainian language products – films, music and literature – and instead imposing taxes on non-Ukrainian language products. The proceeds obtained this way will be channeled into developing Ukrainian language products (though I would extend that to Crimean Tatar language products)

* Nationalization of major enterprises, greater state control of the banking system and a ban on privatization of land

* Energy independence for Ukraine

* The development of competitive branches, particularly food processing and aircraft engineering, shipbuilding, machine-tool construction, machine manufacturing, the military industrial complex and the aerospace industry

* Preferential treatment for Ukrainian students in the allocation of dormitory places, and a series of similar changes to existing legal provisions (though my definition of "Ukrainian" would be someone who is a Ukrainian citizen)

* Decommunisation of public space (monuments, names of streets and places) (to a certain extent)

* Russia should apologize "for its communist crimes

* Ukraine is to leave the Commonwealth of Independent States "and other post-Soviet structures"

* An explicit guarantee of accession to NATO within a set period of time


They also take a hardline stance in their defence of the Ukrainian culture which I think is necessary at times. They basically shout a lot. They are vocal enough in that sense that I get the impression Ukrainian is protected by them, though the problems arise when we look deeper. Here are the things I vehemently disagree with:


* Only those born in Ukraine can become Ukrainian citizens, with the exceptions for those who have lived in Ukraine for more than 15 years, know the Ukrainian language, culture and Ukrainian Constitution (that timeframe is too long, though I do not object to the last three clauses.)

* Ban on abortion, except in cases of medical necessity, or rape; and imprisonment from three to seven years for those who violate this ban (I disagree with this hugely)

* Criminalization of public promotion of abortions or calls for abortions (by introducing a fine for doing so)

* The restoration of the Soviet practice of indicating the ethnic origin in passports and on birth certificates (as a civic nationalist and disbeliever in ethnic purity I disagree with this enormously. My definition of a "Scot" is someone who chooses to live here after all, it doesn't matter about their "race")

* Ban on adoptions by non-Ukrainians of Ukrainian children

* The state is to implement a firm pro-family policy

* Ukraine should again re-acquire tactical nuclear weaponry (I believe nuclear weapons are a blight on mankind)


And of course their strong anti-LGBT stance and occasional alleged sympathy with Nazis. Those are simply unforgivable, which is why I would support Tymoshenko. I must finally say that the Russian minority in Ukraine has its place and role to play in Ukraine's future.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't see anything particularly likeable about them. They just seem like your typical far-right populist proto-fascists.

[Owlbread]

I gave details on what I agreed with and what I disagreed with on the previous page, I apologise for taking so long in my edit. It feels strange saying that I agree with anything from a party like Svoboda but I must be honest and forthcoming.

The fundamental problem with Svoboda's nationalism lies at its base. Svoboda is ethnic nationalist and strongly anti-Russian. Nationalism at its best manifests in parts of Western Europe, the USA, Canada and other parts of the New World. Descan put it beautifully in a conversation I had with him earlier:

The kind of nationalism I like is support of a cultural heritage and anyone who chooses to partake in the heritage, whether born to it or not. I don't agree that you need to be born into something that's all in the mentality to be something.

This will be familiar to many Americans, Canadians, New Zealanders, Australians... all immigrant nations where, fundamentally, people of any background can come and join the movement to build a new, forward-looking country for their children. As an example, American nationalism at its best can actually bring immigrants together. Anyone can be an American. I know that at its worst it drives them apart and causes division, but that's more about people having confused idea of who or what is an American. Most importantly, he goes on to say:

And I don't think nationalism needs to be negative on other nations and peoples. You don't need to hate something else to enjoy and promote something you like

This is important for those who follow Svoboda. I understand any kind of Ukrainian nationalism will be categorised by anti-Russian sentiment to varying degrees, that just comes with the battle (defending a minority culture against a vast and imperialistic cultural neighbour) but you must keep those feelings in check to ensure a brighter future for Ukrainians of all stripes and ethnic backgrounds.

[Yannanth]

Well, I agree with him on pretty much everything sans abortions and maybe the anti-gay stuff.

However,

* The state is to implement a firm pro-family policy

I don't understand what this means. Aren't all governments essentially pro-family (okay, except maybe China)? Please expand.

[Descan]

Pro family usually means "one man one woman" bullshit, it's just a way of saying "no same-sex sex marriage" without actually coming out and saying it.

[Owlbread]

As if two people who love each-other can't form a "family" just because they both happen to be of the same gender.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Pro family usually means "one man one woman" bullshit, it's just a way of saying "no same-sex sex marriage" without actually coming out and saying it.

Yes, no same-sex marriage is included in pro-family policy

Position of the party is basically that: It's a basic right of any person to have sex with whomever he wants but families (and laws that regulate families) are created for one goal - "producing" more nation members. No one want to ban anyone from making any property sharing deals but no, that's not a family.

[Owlbread]

But surely the definition of what constitutes a family is liberal enough that it can vary from person to person?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Well Ukrainian constitution has very exact words. "family is a voluntary union between man and woman."  If anyone to remove that from constitution that will be not my party

[Owlbread]

I think removing that from the constitution would be wise. I would define it as a voluntary and personal union between two people.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I have no intention to discuss LGBT issues with my current revolutionary mood. Besides, I know that no one gonna change their opinion on that subject

[Frumple]

Yes, no same-sex marriage is included in pro-family policy

Position of the party is basically that: It's a basic right of any person to have sex with whomever he wants but families (and laws that regulate families) are created for one goal - "producing" more nation members. No one want to ban anyone from making any property sharing deals but no, that's not a family.

... wouldn't that necessitate that sterile couples could not marry, nor could elderly/onset infertile individuals remain so (so long as they no longer have dependents, I guess)? I mean, if you're going to discriminate based on reproductive capability... do it. Don't half arse it. I've always kinda' wondered why advocates of such don't go full monty...

[Owlbread]

I have no intention to discuss LGBT issues with my current revolutionary mood. Besides, I know that no one gonna change their opinion on that subject

Regardless of our views/stances on LGBT issues and exactly how far Svoboda go, I think virtually everyone here (and across a lot of the West) is standing in solidarity with you in your fight for freedom. Stay safe, Ranger.