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[Scoops Novel]

That's  specious logic, as the statement can be easily reversed: you're basically saying that he should accept his own country's loss for other's gain. You can't seriously make an argument about Owlbread's "evulness" based on this. Get aside so I can take your place much?

I could not have said it better myself, thank you. This is just the way the United Kingdom works - either we accept our loss for the gain of "the majority" (AKA the South-East of England) or we accept the loss of the rest of the UK so that we can better ourselves. I don't believe that the loss will be that great though for the rUK, as I've said before. I actually think it will benefit the UK.

Divorces are ugly things, but they are necessary sometimes and usually involve a lot of selfishness. Even then it's not really "selfish", it's just how the world works.

I explicitly stated, and you explicitly agreed, that you consider your country to be more important then Britain at a net loss for Britain. What else is this supposed to mean?

Firstly, i welcome seeing you lay out the benefits and disadvantages of independence before the SNP does . Secondly, my argument is about economics and resources not politics. Would you be in favor if that was a result, bearing in mind a net loss for Britain as a whole?

I would be, yes. I doubt though that the rUK will be that much worse off, it may even be rejuvenated in some way by our independence. I'd like to see an independent, federal state of England with devolution to its constituent parts, bordering an independent Wales. Northern Ireland and Cornwall should be free to choose their own futures.

I would be, yes. I doubt though that the rUK will be that much worse off, it may even be rejuvenated in some way by our independence. I'd like to see an independent, federal state of England with devolution to its constituent parts, bordering an independent Wales. Northern Ireland and Cornwall should be free to choose their own futures.

Why? I am asking under the assumption that your in favor of Scotland's independence at Britain's expense. Your going to have to rebuff this argument soon enough so you may as well get some practice.

I already have done sir. I have had it thrown at me before. I am in favour of Scottish independence at Britain's expense because I believe my own country to be more important to me, my family and my friends.

Understand what my goalposts are if you're going to accuse me of moving them. I asked you whether you would be in favor under the circumstances of my argument, not whether or not you disbelieved my argument. If your not in favor of Scottish independence on solely national lines, then hey you're a better person then i thought you were.

when you're prepared to cede other countries loss for your owns gain, for the benefit of you and yours, I'm less willing to be lectured on the evils of English rule, and the same goes for your advice for the world you've given so much thought for.

That's  specious logic, as the statement can be easily reversed: you're basically saying that he should accept his own country's loss for other's gain. You can't seriously make an argument about Owlbread's "evulness" based on this. Get aside so I can take your place much?
It's the... third? trollish statement that you have made today, btw, in my count.

Yes, the last statement Novel made is particularly fallacious. By that logic, you can justify everything as long as it benefits someone. Or is it for the "greater good" ?

Chairmanpoo, i was arguing about a net loss for Britain, including Scotland's gains, not equal exchange. PanH, read this bloody post.

[PanH]

What I understand about your post is that you don't think that someone that accepts/want someone's else loss can be moral or is allowed to talk about "the evils".

[Scoops Novel]

What I understand about your post is that you don't think that someone that accepts/want someone's else loss can be moral or is allowed to talk about "the evils".

I don't think that putting your country ahead of others for no reason other then it being your country is moral.

[majikero]

I respect a man who knows what he wants and why he wants it. Having a clear goal is a whole lot better that some obscure ideal about "the greater good".

[Scoops Novel]

I respect a man who knows what he wants and why he wants it. Having a clear goal is a whole lot better that some obscure ideal about "the greater good".

You're quoting someone using a phrase i didn't use and a methodology i haven't stated.

[Dutchling]

What I understand about your post is that you don't think that someone that accepts/want someone's else loss can be moral or is allowed to talk about "the evils".

I don't think that putting your country ahead of others for no reason other then it being your country is moral.

Isn't that sort of a politicians job?

[Scoops Novel]

What I understand about your post is that you don't think that someone that accepts/want someone's else loss can be moral or is allowed to talk about "the evils".

I don't think that putting your country ahead of others for no reason other then it being your country is moral.

Isn't that sort of a politicians job?

They still bother with cultural posturing over human rights.

[MonkeyHead]

Morals are subjective. It may be that for an individual, the fact that they/thier family would be better off in any way is more moral to them than letting thier loved ones be worse off for the minor benefit of anonymous millions.

[Scoops Novel]

Morals are subjective. It may be that for an individual, the fact that they/thier family would be better off in any way is more moral to them than letting thier loved ones be worse off for the minor benefit of anonymous millions.

Yes.

[Owlbread]

Well, today I attended a Scottish independence rally in Edinburgh. The police estimate that 8,300 people were marching, though I am certain I saw more than that. The crowds stretched as far as the eye could see in front of me and behind me, no exaggeration. During the rally itself we were told by Nicola Sturgeon that around 30,000 were in attendance while earlier on the organisers said that there were 15,000-20,000. There seemed to be at least that number considering we filled the top of Calton Hill (which the police say can only hold 12,000 maximum) and spilled into the area round it. The speakers were all excellent and I had a lot of fun today, walking alongside my Flemish, Catalan, Venetian, Basque and South Tyrolian comrades. You won't believe how many Flemish flags there were.

Incidentally I have been invited to take part in a similar march, along with my many of my fellow "activists" (if I'm going to start using that term) in Brussels in March next year as part of a Flemish self determination rally. That may be interesting, I wonder if I should go.

I asked you whether you would be in favor under the circumstances of my argument, not whether or not you disbelieved my argument. If your not in favor of Scottish independence on solely national lines, then hey you're a better person then i thought you were.

Frankly Novel my dear I don't give a damn. If the rest of the UK was going to go on fire and collapse into a genocide-ridden race war then go all Mad Max then of course I would oppose independence. I know though that the "damage" that will be done to the UK will be very minor so I'm not worried.

[Scoops Novel]

Well, today I attended a Scottish independence rally in Edinburgh. The police estimate that 8,300 people were marching, though I am certain I saw more than that. The crowds stretched as far as the eye could see in front of me and behind me, no exaggeration. During the rally itself we were told by Nicola Sturgeon that around 30,000 were in attendance while earlier on the organisers said that there were 15,000-20,000. There seemed to be at least that number considering we filled the top of Calton Hill (which the police say can only hold 12,000 maximum) and spilled into the area round it. The speakers were all excellent and I had a lot of fun today, walking alongside my Flemish, Catalan, Venetian, Basque and South Tyrolian comrades. You won't believe how many Flemish flags there were.

Incidentally I have been invited to take part in a similar march, along with my many of my fellow "activists" (if I'm going to start using that term) in Brussels in March next year as part of a Flemish self determination rally. That may be interesting, I wonder if I should go.

Thanks for the edit. How many of the other nationalities were present? Why so many Flemish?

Frankly Novel my dear I don't give a damn. If the rest of the UK was going to go on fire and collapse into a genocide-ridden race war then go all Mad Max then of course I would oppose independence. I know though that the "damage" that will be done to the UK will be very minor so I'm not worried.

Much as i hate to say it was all a misunderstanding, it seems it was. Just tell me what happens when you're confronted by people with an actual case to go along with my question.

[Owlbread]

Well, I saw Sardinians, Sicilians, Catalans, Venetians, Basques, South Tyrolians and Flemish. There must have been about 20-30 Flemish activists, maybe more because they were very active in walking up and down the sides of the marching column and also had a large group making up part of the column. I think there were about 5-10 Sardinians (again maybe more, I'm struggling to recall), some as well who were apparently Sicilian nationalists were carrying those flags that look like Catalan ones but have the three-legged symbol in the corner. There was a fair group of them.

I saw at least one South Tyrolian guy with a "sud tyrol" flag who seemed to be going to join some other people. There were lots of Basques scattered around everywhere and even Scottish nationalists were often carrying both Basque and Scottish flags at the same time. The Venetians had a tight group of men and women with big beautiful purple and gold lion flags with streamers and everything, I'm not sure how many of them there were. About 5-6 or so maybe. The Catalans were a bit like the Basques in that they seemed to be spread absolutely everywhere and so many people were carrying both Catalan and Scottish flags that you couldn't tell who was Scottish and who was Catalan.

[Scoops Novel]

Are they case by case people?

[Owlbread]

They were actually coordinated, organised groups that were seeking to gain support for their own independence rallies. Some were case by case but most of them were organised activists. There is a longstanding partnership between Venetian, Flemish, Catalan and Basque independence activists that dates back decades, I understand.

I also saw a Cornish flag and a lot more Welsh flags this time. A Welsh choir even performed at the rally itself to the audience.

[Scoops Novel]

Owlbread, why do you have any faith in the SNP? By the way, I've heard enough sirs, dears and the rest. You will do me the favor of treating me as a neutral party.