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[MetalSlimeHunt]

Not really. Intelligent Design fails to reach the scientific standard by a wide margin. This should not exactly be surprising to anyone, given that it is blatantly modified Creationism.

Yes, we know it, but people still managed to get it into schools, where it's teached as a possible truth.

And yes, ID is simply creationism with God replaced by an unknown almighty entity.

While I admit I am not deeply versed on the status of ID in Europe, Wikipedia suggests to me that the only place it appears regularly is UK faith schools.

[10ebbor10]

I'm also not defending "cutting away the ignorants", as in, ban stupid people from voting, instead i argue that we should demand that people who want to vote participate more actively in politics.

But what about those who don't have the option to participate. That system could easily result in a group of political paria's, without vote and without rights.

[XXSockXX]

If voters are uninformed, it's a failure of the political parties, whose proper role it is to inform people and build opinion blocks.

... problem being with that proper role that "inform people" often doesn't have a very strong correlation to "in a non-deceptive manner" Their actual role isn't to inform people, in the sense of actually giving them accurate and relevant information, it's to get votes and damn the guns. As such, that information and opinion building is just chock full of misdirection, distraction, deception, and outright lies all too damned often.

That is true of course, I meant it is their role in theory to channel political opinions and organize the political will of the individual citizens. That does clearly not always work as it is supposed to be, but that is how representative democracy is.

The important principle is that everyone can participate if they want to, without any qualifications or other hindrances. That a lot of people chose not to do so is problematic, as is the fact that many people have no idea who and what they vote for. But that is how it always has been and somehow it seems to work.

If we're redefining democracy here, I'll suggest we apply the "one man, one vote" principle. I'll be the man and I'll have the vote, and I will take good care of y'all (or not). 

democracy is a very flexible word that rarely describes democracy. it usually describes a system where people get to vote for figureheads or one of two or three identical candidates, while not really having a right to complain because thats what they voted for. Democracy is a façade, and it was much better at it when it was capitalism vs. communism\democracy vs. autoracy. Now that it has established itself as the superior political system and it's status became entrenched and unquestionable it's stated goals of freedom and social justice have become more and more meaningless. so take democracy with a grain of salt, it is not a tried and true method to achieve utopia, but instead one that had it's potential to fuck up undermined by the pretension of moral superiority versus a rival that isn't there anymore.

I was joking there obviously. And I totally disagree that Democracy is a façade. It is a flawed system, sure, but still the best one we know. It's not about creating an utopia, but about getting the most agreeable results.

While I admit I am not deeply versed on the status of ID in Europe, Wikipedia suggests to me that the only place it appears regularly is UK faith schools.

As far as I'm aware, ID is a non-issue in Europe, for a variety of reasons.

[10ebbor10]

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

[Frumple]

The important principle is that everyone can participate if they want to, without any qualifications or other hindrances.

... y'all are better about that over in europe, then? Well. Keep it up, haha.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

I'm also not defending "cutting away the ignorants", as in, ban stupid people from voting, instead i argue that we should demand that people who want to vote participate more actively in politics.

But what about those who don't have the option to participate. That system could easily result in a group of political paria's, without vote and without rights.

who are those? the requirements should be pretty lax, like, go to any political event and get a stamp in your voter's card, get five stamps and you're ok to vote that year. political events should also be more frequent in a political system that demands aspiring voters to participate in them, and i can already easily find an event like this every week in the small city i live in

I was joking there obviously. And I totally disagree that Democracy is a façade. It is a flawed system, sure, but still the best one we know. It's not about creating an utopia, but about getting the most agreeable results.

i mainly think it is a façade not because it inevitably devolves into a two identical party system or because of the iron law of oligarchy, but mainly because elected governments rarely have real power and even if they represented the will of the electorate they still have to bend for the market and international politics.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

how nice, you know that quote! i love how this quote is used to excuse all the failings of "democracy". as if "democracy" was a sufficiently descriptive word to define a political system that is better than all the others that have been tried since the beginning of time, in every situation

[10ebbor10]

Watch out with quotes there. Putting words in other people's mouth's isn't nice.

I'm also not defending "cutting away the ignorants", as in, ban stupid people from voting, instead i argue that we should demand that people who want to vote participate more actively in politics.

But what about those who don't have the option to participate. That system could easily result in a group of political paria's, without vote and without rights.

who are those? the requirements should be pretty lax, like, go to any political event and get a stamp in your voter's card, get five stamps and you're ok to vote that year. political events should also be more frequent in a political system that demands aspiring voters to participate in them, and i can already easily find an event like this every week in the small city i live in

And what about the people that live out in the country? I mean, not everyone lives in a city. What about the sick, the elderly, and all those who can't make it. How about people with annoying job time, the poor, and those who live large amounts of time out of the country.

Said system would be expensive to check and prevent falsification, and easily subverted. You'd have people just passing by to get their stamps, and stuff like that.

Besides, just by forcing people to go somewhere you won't actually teach them something. A significant majority wouldn't even listen, I'm afraid.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

how nice, you know that quote! i love how this quote is used to excuse all the failings of "democracy". as if "democracy" was a sufficiently descriptive word to define a political system that is better than all the others that have been tried since the beginning of time, in every situation
[/quote]
Cut the cynicism please. Basic politeness is advised for a progressive discussion.

While I admit I am not deeply versed on the status of ID in Europe, Wikipedia suggests to me that the only place it appears regularly is UK faith schools.

As far as I'm aware, ID is a non-issue in Europe, for a variety of reasons.

ID is a non issue, but it's just an example of how things can go wrong. Ant immigrant sentiments are another problem.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

While I admit I am not deeply versed on the status of ID in Europe, Wikipedia suggests to me that the only place it appears regularly is UK faith schools.

As far as I'm aware, ID is a non-issue in Europe, for a variety of reasons.

ID is a non issue, but it's just an example of how things can go wrong. Ant immigrant sentiments are another problem.

Yes, but you said it was being taught in schools, which it isn't.

[Owlbread]

The only time I learned about intelligent design in high school was when I studied philosophy and we covered the existence of god.

[Dutchling]

I went to a Christian public school and my bio teacher basically told the class there was once was a thing called Intelligent Design but it's dead now and people who don't think so aren't the brightest of God's creatures.

[XXSockXX]

The important principle is that everyone can participate if they want to, without any qualifications or other hindrances.

... y'all are better about that over in europe, then? Well. Keep it up, haha.

A bit I'd say. At least you are auto-registered, as opposed to the States where you have to make quite an effort to vote. On the other hand this requires everyone to carry government issued id and register their place of residence, both things that probably would not fly well in the US.
I got a notification last week for the elections in September, all I gotta do then to vote is carry my ass for a ten minute walk to the next polling place, bring id and that notification, vote and done. That's as easy as it gets.

the requirements should be pretty lax, like, go to any political event and get a stamp in your voter's card, get five stamps and you're ok to vote that year. political events should also be more frequent in a political system that demands aspiring voters to participate in them, and i can already easily find an event like this every week in the small city i live in

Like 10ebbor10 said, that would achieve nothing. If you force somebody to listen to something does not mean they actually pay attention.

i mainly think it is a façade not because it inevitably devolves into a two identical party system or because of the iron law of oligarchy, but mainly because elected governments rarely have real power and even if they represented the will of the electorate they still have to bend for the market and international politics.

That's not necessarily true. Governments have influence on the market and on international politics. Sure, influence varies a lot between countries, but that is what we try to balance out by things like the EU.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

how nice, you know that quote! i love how this quote is used to excuse all the failings of "democracy". as if "democracy" was a sufficiently descriptive word to define a political system that is better than all the others that have been tried since the beginning of time, in every situation

Well, I think it is better. Sure, autocratic systems may be faster making decisions during a crisis, but it's a question of values. If you want your voice to be heard as an individual, there is no better system.

I went to a Christian public school and my bio teacher basically told the class there was once was a thing called Intelligent Design but it's dead now and people who don't think so aren't the brightest of God's creatures.

Yeah, the thing is that ID comes out of biblical literalism, which no major church in Europe subscribes to. The population in Europe tends to be a lot more secular than in the US and even the more religious people don't have much of a problem with evolution.
The other thing is that schools in Europe are much more state regulated than in the US, so there are no local school boards where the more weird types can influence the curriculum.

[10ebbor10]

The important principle is that everyone can participate if they want to, without any qualifications or other hindrances.

... y'all are better about that over in europe, then? Well. Keep it up, haha.

A bit I'd say. At least you are auto-registered, as opposed to the States where you have to make quite an effort to vote. On the other hand this requires everyone to carry government issued id and register their place of residence, both things that probably would not fly well in the US.
I got a notification last week for the elections in September, all I gotta do then to vote is carry my ass for a ten minute walk to the next polling place, bring id and that notification, vote and done. That's as easy as it gets.

In Belgium, voting is mandatory, meaning you'll be fined for not participating. You can give your mandate to a trusted person, if you can't make it and are willing to go through the bureaucratic hussle.

I went to a Christian public school and my bio teacher basically told the class there was once was a thing called Intelligent Design but it's dead now and people who don't think so aren't the brightest of God's creatures.

Yeah, the thing is that ID comes out of biblical literalism, which no major church in Europe subscribes to. The population in Europe tends to be a lot more secular than in the US and even the more religious people don't have much of a problem with evolution.
The other thing is that schools in Europe are much more state regulated than in the US, so there are no local school boards where the more weird types can influence the curriculum.

The thread evolved away from European discussion, so I gave an non European example. The US is actually a great example of how not to do anything, and ID is teached in some states.

[XXSockXX]

I'm not a fan of mandatory voting, as I said people should have a right to be ignorant and to not participate. Still it seems more "fair" than the stuff you have to go through to vote in the US.

BTW, are only national elections mandatory or does that extend to elections for the EU parliament too?

[10ebbor10]

All elections are mandatory. Which, given Belgium's unique style of government, means there're quite a lot. (If Wikipedia is correct, about 6)

Also, you can still vote invalid. Just draw a dog on the paper or something.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The thread evolved away from European discussion, so I gave an non European example. The US is actually a great example of how not to do anything, and ID is teached in some states.

Not since 2005.