Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

A

[10ebbor10]

Right now the UK has a massive debt. If Scotland leaves the UK it would be expected to take it's share of the debt. Which would be fine under normal circumstances but the UK is still coming out of a recession right now. You say that the Scottish fiscal deficit is relatively low, which is great except as a country you'd be forced to pick up a lot of extra stuff. Diplomats, a standing army (or disaster relief force) and whole new levels of bureaucracy will leave you more indebted.

Currently the United Kingdom's government is pursuing the idea that Scotland was annexed by England in 1707 and that England did not really lose its independence, rather it just renamed itself after annexing us. That negates the idea of Scotland becoming a successor state (though completely justifies the age-old criticism that Scotland is an English colony) meaning that we're left high and dry. The problem with that though is that we are not actually obliged to take on any of the debt at all so if negotiations don't go our way we can simply dump all the debt we've been saddled with on the UK. I'd also like some proof to show that all these new levels of bureaucracy, diplomats and the standing army will push us into debt.

Additionally you will lose all your trade rights with England who will in essence place up tariffs and other taxes when you try to import and export goods.

I'm sure we could negotiate that. England benefits from our trade as much as we do. We are also helped in some part by the EU and its provision of free trade, though if the rUK decides to leave then so be it.

Well, in order to join the EU, IIRC you need to unanimously accepted by the members states. The UK is one of them. They'll force quite a lot of limitations on you, especially on immigration, and whatever else could have a bad effect on them.

And if the UK leaves the EU by the time Scotland becomes an independent country (something that is quite likely) then that won't be a problem at all.

Another note is that since you want to secede partially for economical reasons, how happy the nation would be when asked to pay for the more problematic members.

We're going to pay for the "more problematic" members anyway in the future.

Sadly, the EU is not really interested in an independent Scotland. They're interested in stability in the local area. So well, they will force you to come to a friendly agreement, with a possible membership in the balance. Otherwise, it's possible that Scotland becomes the next operation theather for the Eurocorps peacekeeping force.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Be careful what you wish for, Owlbread. It's been speculated upon more than once that Quebec cutting off the eastern provinces might eventually lead to them joining...the United States.

Of course, there's no way to tell what would happen unless Quebec actually did secede. But the US is the closest neighbor who doesn't speak French...

Then again, they could always join Iceland.

[Owlbread]

Sadly, the EU is not really interested in an independent Scotland. They're interested in stability in the local area. So well, they will force you to come to a friendly agreement, with a possible membership in the balance. Otherwise, it's possible that Scotland becomes the next operation theather for the Eurocorps peacekeeping force.

Any friendly agreement that is friendly must have concessions on both sides. That doesn't frighten me. Stability is the SNP's middle name. Well, it's actually "National" but you get my point.

Be careful what you wish for, Owlbread. It's been speculated upon more than once that Quebec cutting off the eastern provinces might eventually lead to them joining...the United States.

Of course, there's no way to tell what would happen unless Quebec actually did secede. But the US is the closest neighbor who doesn't speak French...

Then again, they could always join Iceland.

When I was over in Nova Scotia I have never seen so many flags in all my life, besides in the USA. So, so many Canadian flags it was mindnumbing. I could feel myself lactating pure maple syrup at the sight of them. I just can't see them joining the USA.

[MonkeyHead]

There is zero chance of any kind of armed uprising from any of the mainland GB nations. Even Ireland has turned its back on that sorta thing.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Any friendly agreement that is friendly must have concessions on both sides. That doesn't frighten me. Stability is the SNP's middle name. Well, it's actually "National" but you get my point.

That's good, because "Scottish Stability Party" sounds like it would be some kind of quasi-fascist group.

I just can't see them joining the USA.

Right now, sure. But if a particularly Anglo-hostile regime took power in a Republic of Quebec, the eastern provinces would likely run into some serious economic difficulties.

[Owlbread]

There is zero chance of any kind of armed uprising from any of the mainland GB nations. Even Ireland has turned its back on that sorta thing.

I cannot agree with and reiterate this enough. Zero chance. Zilch. Nil. Never.

That's good, because "Scottish Stability Party" sounds like it would be some kind of quasi-fascist group.

It does, doesn't it? There's a number of people I can imagine leading it, in fact. A number of them in Better Together.

Right now, sure. But if a particularly Anglo-hostile regime took power in a Republic of Quebec, the eastern provinces would likely run into some serious economic difficulties.

Economic difficulties does not necessarily an American make. I mean, that sounds like a silly thing to say when you consider the prime reasons for most immigrants going to the USA but those provinces are just so... Canadian... I can't see them being anything else, besides being independent or something like that. It would need to be a bad, bad situation for that to happen.

[RedKing]

Any friendly agreement that is friendly must have concessions on both sides. That doesn't frighten me. Stability is the SNP's middle name. Well, it's actually "National" but you get my point.

That's good, because "Scottish Stability Party" sounds like it would be some kind of quasi-fascist group.

Not to mention, anyone who's been to a Scottish party knows that no one is terribly stable after the first few pints. 

[Willfor]

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/lfss01a-eng.htm

These are basically the official numbers. What I draw from them is that Newfoundland (a very recent join to Canada) and PEI have their unemployment down (I suspect oil and tourism as the causes for that respectively), while Nova Scotia and New Brunswick (my province) have actually had unemployment go up. To begin with, each of these provinces is 3 points higher in unemployed people than the national average. And, right now, we're in the high point of seasonal resource/tourism work, which means this figure is going to jump up again as we head into the winter months, and people start trying to get back onto Employment Insurance (which Alberta Conservatives recently took the axe to because they have no idea how seasonal fishery workers could possibly need to survive from season to season)

Trade through Quebec is not an insignificant portion of our economies, and if that border stops being Canada and starts being a regulated Canada->Quebec->Canada (that's two customs stops) then things are going to be even more skewed toward the already inconvenient Canada->US->Canada crossings that some shipping companies already use. That means more treaties needed to get our goods from place to place. At a certain point, we're going to be pretty fed up of not being able to get our resources to market without higher prices being tacked on than the rest of Canada faces, and we're going to look at some hard economic questions. Without Quebec there to help bring at least a few eastern voices to the mix, Alberta is going to be able to set policy for us (like they already are doing, and already make us feel unheard) and at least the US would give us some rights to set our own policies.

Our provinces (sans Newfoundland) were part of the founding of Canada, you'll never find a place that WANTS to be part of Canada more than you'll find it here, and being part of a confederation makes sense economically for us -- so long as we're being treated in good faith. And if Canada stops doing that for us, we're all still technically free to leave if you piss us off hard enough, and we can't really stand very well without being part of a group. We might just join the US. :/

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Yessss........come over to the dark side.....it is your destiny.

[Andrew425]

If Quebec splits you would see a rise in other provinces wanting to separate. We'd fall apart like a house of cards.

You see Western Canada and Central Canada don't really like each other, the Maritime provinces still have their economy based around fishing and are always in a cycle of unemployment. Ontario (specifically Toronto) thinks itself to be the centre of the universe. People from BC are self conceited. Alberta is crazy conservative. The prairies and the territories are okay except no one lives there. The only thing keeping us together is our mutual hatred of Quebec.

The maritimes would likely split off from Canada, eventually either setting up their own country our getting merged into the US. BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and the Yukon would then likely try to do the same as the Maritimes leaving Ontario and Manitoba alone in the centre.

These mini states would likely be gobbled up by the Americans after struggling with their economy.

[Owlbread]

Well my own suggestion would be to create a grand pan-American confederation containing all these little statelets that could eventually absorb a fractured Mexico. I could define myself as an international separatist but I'm not really opposed to multinational unions, just as long as they don't turn into unitary states themselves. That kind of thing would even allow for Cascadia and the like to make an appearance. Hawaii, Vermont and all that.

I've just realised with fear that the Scottish Stability Party is the perfect new platform for the Orange Lodge following the demise of their "Unionist Party". I kindly ask you to never repeat it in the presence of a middle aged, "Proudly Scottish, Proudly British" Glaswegian with visible nasal veins broken from whisky imbibement, wearing an orange sash and white gloves. Catholics everywhere will thank you.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Well my own suggestion would be to create a grand pan-American confederation containing all these little statelets that could eventually absorb a fractured Mexico. I could define myself as an international separatist but I'm not really opposed to multinational unions, just as long as they don't turn into unitary states themselves. That kind of thing would even allow for Cascadia and the like to make an appearance. Hawaii, Vermont and all that.

The number of people supporting those are far too low to ever be viable.

I've just realised with fear that the Scottish Stability Party is the perfect new platform for the Orange Lodge following the demise of their "Unionist Party". I kindly ask you to never repeat it in the presence of a middle aged Glaswegian with visible nasal veins broken from whisky imbibement, wearing an orange sash and white gloves. Catholics everywhere will thank you.

* MetalSlimeHunt books a ticket to Scotland.

[Owlbread]

The number of people supporting those are far too low to ever be viable.

So you say, but we're talking about a hypothetical bloody situation here with the entirety of Eastern Canada joining the USA. Let's use our imagination here, who knows, maybe in a confederation like that they may become viable.

* MetalSlimeHunt books a ticket to Scotland.

Spoiler: You have forsaken us all. (click to show/hide)

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The number of people supporting those are far too low to ever be viable.

So you say, but we're talking about a hypothetical bloody situation here with the entirety of Eastern Canada joining the USA. Let's use our imagination here, who knows, maybe in a confederation like that they may become viable.

Yes, but I'm proposing a scenario where eastern Canada joining the Union is a rational and plausible outcome (the rise of anti-Anglo independent Quebec causing economic strife for them). What's your idea on how a pan-American confederation could become a reasonable course of action?

* MetalSlimeHunt books a ticket to Scotland.

Spoiler: You have forsaken us all. (click to show/hide)

Don't worry, I've never actually left the US. Don't even have a passport.

...LOL 1871?

[Owlbread]

Yes, but I'm proposing a scenario where eastern Canada joining the Union is a rational and plausible outcome (the rise of anti-Anglo independent Quebec causing economic strife for them). What's your idea on how a pan-American confederation could become a reasonable course of action?

But I just can't see how the most pro-Canadian part of Canada can unanimously join the USA, the Unbreakable Union of Unbreakable States, without some kind of a concession of greater autonomy than normal. It would lead to a very fractured Canada indeed (it would basically fall to bits), so I was just suggesting that the USA and Mexico consider fracturing into a grand pan-American confederation. You know, go with the flow.

Don't worry, I've never actually left the US. Don't even have a passport.

...LOL 1871?

Yes. I think it's the number of the lodge. I haven't a clue though, they're like the Masons except ridiculously bigoted, backward arseholes. I've said before that Winston Churchill represents most things I hate about Britain, the Orangemen represent virtually everything I hate about Scotland.