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[Owlbread]

Incidentally, earlier you mentioned a increase in debt for the UK without Scotland from 6% to 6.3%. What negative effects do you predict for the UK?

Sectarian strife in Northern Ireland, identity crisis in England. The UK's international power would diminish somewhat I suspect, at least by way of appearance, and you would also have to take a long, hard look at stuff like Trident and whether or not you really need it. I wouldn't see that as a negative consequence though, it depends on your perspective.

[Scoops Novel]

Incidentally, earlier you mentioned a increase in debt for the UK without Scotland from 6% to 6.3%. What negative effects do you predict for the UK?

Sectarian strife in Northern Ireland, identity crisis in England. The UK's international power would diminish somewhat I suspect, at least by way of appearance, and you would also have to take a long, hard look at stuff like Trident and whether or not you really need it. I wouldn't see that as a negative consequence though, it depends on your perspective.

Hard and fast consequences such as above please, right as it might be Owlbread.

[Owlbread]

I don't really know the facts and figures with respect to England and the rest of the UK, I'm afraid. It's not my realm of expertise, I can only offer general impressions.

[10ebbor10]

There's also the immigration problem. The UK's entire immigration system is based on being an island nation. If Scotland decides, for example, to be more liberal in whom they let in, they could have problems with massive illegal immigration in the UK.

[Owlbread]

There's also the immigration problem. The UK's entire immigration system is based on being an island nation. If Scotland decides, for example, to be more liberal in whom they let in, they could have problems with massive illegal immigration in the UK.

There are already problems with massive immigration in England, that will probably increase with independence because we certianly will be more liberal with regards to whom they let in. Scotland is aging rapidly - England on the other hand is exploding in population. It's another little example of how different our countries are.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

There's also the immigration problem. The UK's entire immigration system is based on being an island nation. If Scotland decides, for example, to be more liberal in whom they let in, they could have problems with massive illegal immigration in the UK.

There are already problems with massive immigration in England, that will probably increase with independence because we certianly will be more liberal with regards to whom they let in. Scotland is aging rapidly - England on the other hand is exploding in population. It's another little example of how different our countries are.

eh, i'm eagerly waiting to be part of first batch of filthy expats invading to take your jobs and advantage of your socialized systems! ima scotsman at heart anyway

[Andrew425]

I want Scotland and England to stay together.  I'm part Scottish and part English so it's easier for me to say that I'm British rather then having to decide. It'll be like trying to pick a parent during a divorce, easier to have them stay together.

Also Scotland will realize how much of a good deal it is getting being part of the UK.  Though I don't know why you guys don't reform into a federalist state as it seems much easier.

[Owlbread]

I want Scotland and England to stay together.  I'm part Scottish and part English so it's easier for me to say that I'm British rather then having to decide. It'll be like trying to pick a parent during a divorce, easier to have them stay together.

But sometimes Mums and Dads have irreconcilable differences, so even if it's easier to stay together one or both parents will always be unhappy. It just so happens that in this marriage one spouse is an intolerable control freak who has insisted on taking power of attorney over the other and the creation of a "shared bank account" that really just consists of their own account absorbing the other. They don't let their spouse go out alone, they don't let them make new friends. If the other spouse wants a car, they need permission. The couple married out of convenience, for financial reasons, not for love.

Normally it would be of utmost importance to consider how it would affect the child of this relationship. Thankfully, colourful though this common analogy is (the whole marriage thing), it's a load of bollocks and the "children" of this relationship don't matter. The only people that matter are the people that live here. In Scotland. Doesn't matter whether David Mitchell would feel "a part of him has been torn away" if we became independent, what matters is if we can protect ourselves from another  Iraq or 2005 Glasgow attack or the mismanagement of the economy in London and all the rest of it.

It's interesting that the quickest people to delve into "identity politics" and other such things are Unionists. That is the bulk of their "positive campaign" i.e. "Oh but you can be Scottish AND British! Isn't that great?". Listen mate, I'm British whether I like it or not and if we get independence then I'll still be British because I'm from the same bloody island as you. They're also the quickest to get into the unseemly business of "Scots abroad" voting or the descendents of Scottish diaspora as if being born here or having a Scottish granny gives you some kind of a magical birth right to vote in the independence referendum.

If you don't live here then you shouldn't vote on the future of those who do - it doesn't matter if you live in Corby in England (trumped up by the media as "little Scotland" because of the Scottish immigrant population down there) and your family is all Scottish dating back to the time of Robert the Bruce - that doesn't make you better than the sardar living and working in Glasgow with his family. He might have just got here from Punjab but he's got more of a right to vote on his own future than you do.

Also Scotland will realize how much of a good deal it is getting being part of the UK.  Though I don't know why you guys don't reform into a federalist state as it seems much easier.

It does, doesn't it? Shame Westminster is so narrow minded, power hungry and out of touch that they're unable to see that. I've also gone through just how shit a deal it actually is already, please back that up a bit.

[Loud Whispers]

Hey Owlbread, if Scotland became independent which side of the mountains would be better to live in in your opinion?

[Owlbread]

Hey Owlbread, if Scotland became independent which side of the mountains would be better to live in in your opinion?

Well, I think Scotland is a very diverse place with lots of unique regions and places in it so it would be wise to travel the country before you decide to roost in a particular nest. I mean, the big cities in the central belt (Glasgow, Edinburgh, all the Strathclyde towns) do it for a lot of people, they're great cities, though lots of people enjoy the lowland countryside in places like the Scottish borders or Dumfries and Galloway, Ayrshire and stuff (where RedKing's ancestors are from I understand). Some venture into the rugged Highlands, a place where you literally have some of the best walks in existence on your doorstep. Then you've got the North East, a lowland area but again very beautiful with the great, grim, grey city of Aberdeen. I haven't even talked about the glorious Western Isles or the Northern Isles yet, two extremely different locations; the Western Isles are a bit like the Highlands but shrunk with a ray gun of some kind and shaven bald. Orkney and Shetland (the North) are much flatter, but totally different in culture and still very beautiful. South of that you've got the harsh wastelands of Caithness and Cape Wrath, pretty awesome places, adjoining the Highlands through ancient lands of Sutherland, so called because the Vikings came through that way. From their perspective the top of Britain was the South. I live in the lower part of the Highlands personally, but I've lived in the cities and the only conclusion I can really give you is whatever tickles your fancy.

You also have to consider stuff like the local cultures and what suits you best. People from the North East are going to be extremely different from people from Glasgow or Edinburgh, who will be even more different still from people in the Highlands or the Western Isles. Regional accents, dialects, customs, social attitudes - you can see a lot of diversity in this country. You will experience a huge change in lifestyle if you move from Edinburgh to Glasgow or vice versa. Edinburgh was once called the Athens of the North for its Greek revival architecture and culture, but I personally find it a bit snooty. Glasgow is just one big, lovely diamond in the rough. I could talk for hours on this little subject (I love our regional accents and stuff) so you can see why I've tried to talk about it in a more general way.

The only thing that I would say to you is don't consider Dundee. Give it 10 years until Brian Cox is finished with it, right now going shopping there is like living through the movie "The Name of the Rose".

[GreatJustice]

Honestly, the biggest problem I see for the cause of Scottish independence is that the major players aren't in favour of it for entirely different reasons. The Tories tend to have some dislike of the idea of splitting the UK, and the Labour Party will be in very deep trouble and may find themselves marginalized as political discussion swings rightwards. But hey, it's worth a shot, right?

[Andrew425]

I live in Canada so I don't really expect to have a say in your decision except to say that it's a bad one. I can say that because I live in Canada where we continually have a province that threatens to secede every 10 years or so.

Right now the UK has a massive debt. If Scotland leaves the UK it would be expected to take it's share of the debt. Which would be fine under normal circumstances but the UK is still coming out of a recession right now. You say that the Scottish fiscal deficit is relatively low, which is great except as a country you'd be forced to pick up a lot of extra stuff. Diplomats, a standing army (or disaster relief force) and whole new levels of bureaucracy will leave you more indebted. Additionally you will lose all your trade rights with England who will in essence place up tariffs and other taxes when you try to import and export goods. Your oil production according to Wikipedia is only feasible for the next 10-15 years. Also seceding doesn't stop the power hungry peoples. If this referendum goes through you'll likely see an increase in corruption at the top of the government for a little while until you clear it out.

I hope i'm not coming across rude or anything as I can see you are quite passionate about the subject, I just don't see the point of separating two countries when your problems can still be fixed.

[Evil Knievel]

I ll say sth, I can't refrain. Sorry, I am bad at getting my points across.

Out of EU's perspective, there is really nothing wrong with secession. It weakens national governments in favour of regions and the pluralistic EU. Conversely, it is the EU that limits resistance against these kinds of movements (violent government reactions against separatists should be more difficult).

Personally, I would not mind if people build governments as they feel like belonging together, and if they want, under the umbrella of some kind of EU.

The scottish independence will be a great example for others, like catalunia in spain. In some ways the situation there seems analogous, and there will never be any vote for independence if spain can prevent it (i.e., without pressure from EU).

[10ebbor10]

Also, fun fact, from the 21 first of July, Belgium will have 2 Kings and 3 Queens.

[XXSockXX]

If the Scottish people vote for independence then they will get it, simple as that. The UK can't compete with a democratic mandate like that.

But if the vote fails by a close margin, that might lead to renewed interest in federalism.
Also I suppose that if a majority votes for independence, the government might panic and try to negotiate.

Additionally you will lose all your trade rights with England who will in essence place up tariffs and other taxes when you try to import and export goods. Your oil production according to Wikipedia is only feasible for the next 10-15 years. Also seceding doesn't stop the power hungry peoples. If this referendum goes through you'll likely see an increase in corruption at the top of the government for a little while until you clear it out.

Trade rights and corruption sounds like something out of a Paradox game. Trade shouldn't be an issue within the EU framework and corruption is pretty universal, so these aren't real problems.
Agree with your points about independence being costly and oil being finite though.

Also, fun fact, from the 21 first of July, Belgium will have 2 Kings and 3 Queens.

If life was more like poker, that would be a pretty good thing.