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[10ebbor10]

Well, in order to join the EU, IIRC you need to unanimously accepted by the members states. The UK is one of them. They'll force quite a lot of limitations on you, especially on immigration, and whatever else could have a bad effect on them.

Another note is that since you want to secede partially for economical reasons, how happy the nation would be when asked to pay for the more problematic members.

[Owlbread]

Honestly, the biggest problem I see for the cause of Scottish independence is that the major players aren't in favour of it for entirely different reasons. The Tories tend to have some dislike of the idea of splitting the UK, and the Labour Party will be in very deep trouble and may find themselves marginalized as political discussion swings rightwards. But hey, it's worth a shot, right?

Actually, those aren't problems for the cause of Scottish independence, they're boons. If the big Unionist parties are at odds with one another that can only aid the Yes Campaign.

The sad fact though is that Labour would do extremely well in an independent Scotland. I predict they will eventually be our governing party, probably quite soon. They're only really opposing it because they use Scotland as a safe-seat base for their up-and-coming candidates. If you want to make it to the Labour leadership in London, try the Labour leadership in Scotland. Scotland used to be a great stepping stone for them, but that's all we were to them - they didn't give a damn. It's all about power.

I live in Canada so I don't really expect to have a say in your decision except to say that it's a bad one. I can say that because I live in Canada where we continually have a province that threatens to secede every 10 years or so.

Right, so you're sick of the Quebecois and now that means you won't give us a chance. I've seen that a lot from Scottish Canadians, depressing stuff.

Right now the UK has a massive debt. If Scotland leaves the UK it would be expected to take it's share of the debt. Which would be fine under normal circumstances but the UK is still coming out of a recession right now. You say that the Scottish fiscal deficit is relatively low, which is great except as a country you'd be forced to pick up a lot of extra stuff. Diplomats, a standing army (or disaster relief force) and whole new levels of bureaucracy will leave you more indebted.

Currently the United Kingdom's government is pursuing the idea that Scotland was annexed by England in 1707 and that England did not really lose its independence, rather it just renamed itself after annexing us. That negates the idea of Scotland becoming a successor state (though completely justifies the age-old criticism that Scotland is an English colony) meaning that we're left high and dry. The problem with that though is that we are not actually obliged to take on any of the debt at all so if negotiations don't go our way we can simply dump all the debt we've been saddled with on the UK. I'd also like some proof to show that all these new levels of bureaucracy, diplomats and the standing army will push us into debt.

Additionally you will lose all your trade rights with England who will in essence place up tariffs and other taxes when you try to import and export goods.

I'm sure we could negotiate that. England benefits from our trade as much as we do. We are also helped in some part by the EU and its provision of free trade, though if the rUK decides to leave then so be it.

Your oil production according to Wikipedia is only feasible for the next 10-15 years.

According to Wikipedia. According to lots of other people our oil production will be feasible for decades. It's something both Nationalists and Unionists exploit for their own gain so I'm taking everything I hear about our oil with a pinch of salt, you should too.

Also seceding doesn't stop the power hungry peoples. If this referendum goes through you'll likely see an increase in corruption at the top of the government for a little while until you clear it out.

Prove it. That's a heavy accusation.

I hope i'm not coming across rude or anything as I can see you are quite passionate about the subject, I just don't see the point of separating two countries when your problems can still be fixed.

They can't be. These problems run deep and they've been simmering away for centuries. The establishments in both countries don't want to change it by pursuing something like a confederal Britain and the people would be too apathetic to follow that kind of an idea.

Well, in order to join the EU, IIRC you need to unanimously accepted by the members states. The UK is one of them. They'll force quite a lot of limitations on you, especially on immigration, and whatever else could have a bad effect on them.

And if the UK leaves the EU by the time Scotland becomes an independent country (something that is quite likely) then that won't be a problem at all.

Another note is that since you want to secede partially for economical reasons, how happy the nation would be when asked to pay for the more problematic members.

We're going to pay for the "more problematic" members anyway in the future.

But if the vote fails by a close margin, that might lead to renewed interest in federalism.

Oh it certainly will - the SNP's stance is that independence is a "once in a generation" thing so if we vote no then we'll wait about 25 years before we have the next vote.

Also I suppose that if a majority votes for independence, the government might panic and try to negotiate.

I'm sure they'd probably try to pull something like that, but they just can't compete with the SNP + a democratic mandate. Doesn't work that way. They're like a machine.

[GreatJustice]

Quite frankly, the Quebecois ought to be allowed to leave. For the past forty someodd years they've been trying to alternate between manipulating Federal revenue for their own benefit and creating their very own provincial programs to gain extra benefits from the Federal ones. If they left immediately, taking control of everything in their province owned by the Federal government and treated us the way the Americans do, in the long run it wouldn't be such a disaster.

[Owlbread]

I'd like to see an independent Quebec, personally. Hopefully they'd find a way to work out the social problems they have with "Anglos".

[MonkeyHead]

Knowing Canada, they should settle the issue with an ice hockey game... oh, and all have Kraft dinner between periods.

[Willfor]

I would not like to see an independent Quebec because it basically fucks every province to the east of it. I am in one of those provinces. I don't plan on moving, which means I will watch the world around me collapse into an even worse economic situation than we're already experiencing.

[Owlbread]

I would not like to see an independent Quebec because it basically fucks every province to the east of it. I am in one of those provinces. I don't plan on moving, which means I will watch the world around me collapse into an even worse economic situation than we're already experiencing.

Maybe the Maritimes should become independent. The Maritimes Federation.

[kaijyuu]

Let's all coalesce into one giant World Government instead.

[MonkeyHead]

Let's all coalesce into one giant World Government instead.

One giant federal state of independant micronations. So inneficient it does nothing.

[Willfor]

I would not like to see an independent Quebec because it basically fucks every province to the east of it. I am in one of those provinces. I don't plan on moving, which means I will watch the world around me collapse into an even worse economic situation than we're already experiencing.

Maybe the Maritimes should become independent. The Maritimes Federation.

As much as I would LOVE to believe this is possible, the fact of the matter is that I doubt our long term sustainability. It's true that there's some oil out here, but after that runs out all we have is wood and the problem of mismanaged fisheries. We take heavy advantage of being able to import food from other parts of Canada, and the part I live in has mostly changed into a service economy. People moving out west is common because there aren't enough jobs for everyone born here. We're still hanging on because we're in a place of convenience, and if Quebec goes away we lose a massive part of our convenience.

[GreatJustice]

I would not like to see an independent Quebec because it basically fucks every province to the east of it. I am in one of those provinces. I don't plan on moving, which means I will watch the world around me collapse into an even worse economic situation than we're already experiencing.

Maybe the Maritimes should become independent. The Maritimes Federation.

That would nicely wrap things up. But then we would have the same problem as Britain would with Scotland leaving except about twice as bad; suddenly the Liberals lose their "safe areas" in the Maritimes in addition to distinctly anti-Conservative Quebec, and the influence of modestly Conservative BC and Arch-Conservative Alberta increases massively. The Conservatives are already looking quite tough to beat, and I'd say they have significantly less redeeming traits/members than the UK Tories or Republicans, so I'd rather not live in a place where they're basically impossible to beat.

[Owlbread]

One giant federal state of independant micronations. So inneficient it does nothing.

And yet it is surprisingly peaceful and everyone is oddly happy.

As much as I would LOVE to believe this is possible, the fact of the matter is that I doubt our long term sustainability. It's true that there's some oil out here, but after that runs out all we have is wood and the problem of mismanaged fisheries. We take heavy advantage of being able to import food from other parts of Canada, and the part I live in has mostly changed into a service economy. People moving out west is common because there aren't enough jobs for everyone born here. We're still hanging on because we're in a place of convenience, and if Quebec goes away we lose a massive part of our convenience.

The Maritimes could maybe experiment with renewable energy production through wave power and offshore wind farms, you have an enormous coastline. You could become the centre for such technology in North America.

That would nicely wrap things up. But then we would have the same problem as Britain would with Scotland leaving except about twice as bad; suddenly the Liberals lose their "safe areas" in the Maritimes in addition to distinctly anti-Conservative Quebec, and the influence of modestly Conservative BC and Arch-Conservative Alberta increases massively. The Conservatives are already looking quite tough to beat, and I'd say they have significantly less redeeming traits/members than the UK Tories or Republicans, so I'd rather not live in a place where they're basically impossible to beat.

If I was living in somewhere like Alberta, I agree, I'd be pretty upset about being left to the mercy of the Arch Conservatives. The thing is though - if the majority of people in that province support the evil bastards, shouldn't they then be governed by the evil bastards if they want them? Godwin is going to rear his ugly head here but as long as they aren't promoting ethnic cleansing it shouldn't be the end of the world.

I'm sure though that even in the event of Quebecois independence, Canada would find a way around. I mean, it won't be nearly as bad as West and East Pakistan - but they survived on a thread for decades despite being an entire sub-continent apart from one another.

[Scoops Novel]

I don't really know the facts and figures with respect to England and the rest of the UK, I'm afraid. It's not my realm of expertise, I can only offer general impressions.

I hope you find out. It will be a talking point.

[Zangi]

Let's all coalesce into one giant World Government instead.

All hail the Empire.  One size fits all.  Some regions/provinces/states/cities are more equal then others.  So much bureaucracy, that it will take months if not years to get err done.  Of course, you can make some 'donations' to circumvent the red tape...

[Scoops Novel]

Let's all coalesce into one giant World Government instead.

All hail the Empire.  One size fits all.  Some regions/provinces/states/cities are more equal then others.  So much bureaucracy, that it will take months if not years to get err done.  Of course, you can make some 'donations' to circumvent the red tape...

Man, you've been sounding ineffectual lately. Genuine knowledge and ideas about what it means are still useful.

Blame watching too much 400 days gameplay for the "man".