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[Owlbread]

I think it will give independence movements across the world a fresh start. Hopefully it'll trickle into the Islamic world - too many regional seperatists out there became associated with Islamic extremism (e.g. Chechens) and look at what it has led to.

[Loud Whispers]

We tend to elect parties that are more progressive than elsewhere in the UK - we're pro gun control, pro gay rights, anti nuclear, very "green"... you know, all that stuff.

_{But that sounds exactly the same as everywhere in the UK... And gun control is not an issue...}

[Leafsnail]

Scottish independence still doesn't seem to be anywhere close to passing.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Scottish independence still doesn't seem to be anywhere close to passing.

That's what the polls say. The polls also say that Devo Max would pass, but the SNP doesn't want to have that as an option.

[Sheb]

My impression is that it's close enough it's going to depend on a lot of things. The wording of the referendum, the options available, and how the economy fare until 2014. If stuff keep looking shitty in the UK, Scotland might decide it's better on its own.

I wonder what the impact on UK politics will be. The Tories will be the Party That Lost Scotland. Probably going to hurt them quite a lot.

[Leafsnail]

Only it will actually benefit the Tories a lot because their biggest opponents in parliament would lose a large chunk of their seats while they would lose only one.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

My impression is that it's close enough it's going to depend on a lot of things. The wording of the referendum, the options available, and how the economy fare until 2014. If stuff keep looking shitty in the UK, Scotland might decide it's better on its own.

It's one year, and only about 30% of Scots support independence. I don't see it happening.

[Owlbread]

_{But that sounds exactly the same as everywhere in the UK... And gun control is not an issue...}

Yes but somehow we ended up with no tuition fees, no prescription charges, the most restrictive gun policies in the isles and other freebies I can't remember. I lose track of them you see, that's why I like it when some indignant southern chaps (nobody here, just some disagreeable right-wingers from middle england I've met elsewhere) throw it up in my face and complain of us leeching their funds, Tartan Mafia and so on. It reminds me of how lucky we are.

Only it will actually benefit the Tories a lot because their biggest opponents in parliament would lose a large chunk of their seats while they would lose only one.

That's a better way of putting it rather than Labour's wonderful "Vote yes and damn England to centuries of Tory Rule" nonsense. Labour and the Conservatives have only managed to succeed in general elections due to sufficient numbers of English people voting in their favour - that's just the way the system works given that England is so large. Furthermore whether or not Scotland actually gets the "national" government it voted for hinges entirely on the English vote. We can swing certain votes in favour of Labour occasionally, but that's all we're good for - swinging.

Also, Mr. SlimeHunt, we all know independence isn't going to happen. You don't have to wave it in our faces again when we start waxing lyrically about it.

My impression is that it's close enough it's going to depend on a lot of things. The wording of the referendum, the options available, and how the economy fare until 2014. If stuff keep looking shitty in the UK, Scotland might decide it's better on its own.

I wonder what the impact on UK politics will be. The Tories will be the Party That Lost Scotland. Probably going to hurt them quite a lot.

Yes. The Conservatives will be damned initially because of this, I believe. They're going to be out of action until people realise that Labour are just as terrible as the Conservatives, in which case UKIP will probably have become a credible "Third Party". That said, they will probably pick up again due to their opponents (Labour) losing seats.

I predict the vote will be far, far closer than polls suggest, although I am virtually certain we are going to vote no due to the overpopulation of people who actually listen to arguments like:

"Sure you can remove the nuclear weapons that are being renewed on the Clyde by a government you didn't elect costing billions while people die of MRSA infections in your hospitals because they aren't clean enough, but what about the 7000 jobs that will magically disappear? Even though the base will continue as a naval base?"

Or my favourite:

"I'm voting no because I don't want to have to visit my grandchildren in a foreign country."

If politics is all that keeps us together as that person seems to be implying, why do they keep shoving the argument down our throats that we share so much and have so much in common? If us gaining independence is going to turn Scotland and England into North and South Korea then this relationship is held together with staples and chewing gum.

What's their problem with foreigners anyway? I have relatives in Australia, Ireland, Canada, England, Wales, Malta and Italy and whether or not they're close to me depends on whether I like them or not and if there's a bloody ocean in the way. Last I checked England and Scotland share a border and we're on the same island. It's not like England is going to be magically teleported into the middle of the Atlantic. Also I have a great aunt in South Wales who, despite having received a first in literature at the University of Aberystwyth, believed fully that she had to have a passport to go to Scotland.

But yes, the arguments on both sides are very tedious. I have been reading articles on independence every day since july/august 2011 or so and I sometimes just want to talk about the possibly good things that will come - the possibilities it could bring and so forth. You know, I like talking about the kinds of societies we could create here. How it might affect the world and so on. The kind of stuff we were talking about before.

[Culise]

I'm hoping Scotland get independant for another reason: It'd prove that a region can secede without bloodshed and that a state can let a part go away without loosing face. It would be a great precedent.

No one ever remembers the Velvet Divorce.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Also, Mr. SlimeHunt, we all know independence isn't going to happen. You don't have to wave it in our faces again when we start waxing lyrically about it.

I'm not waving it in your face, I'm answering Sheb's hypothetical.

[i2amroy]

I'm hoping Scotland get independant for another reason: It'd prove that a region can secede without bloodshed and that a state can let a part go away without loosing face. It would be a great precedent.

No one ever remembers the Velvet Divorce.

Reason 1: Not a very large or powerful country there.
Reason 2: We no longer got to say the word Czechoslovakia. That alone is reason to ignore it in my book.

[Sheb]

Also, it's slightly different in that the two countries were of equal size. No one could force the other to stay in.

[ChairmanPoo]

 along with adding more unusual things like "The right to a home" and other stuff that hasn't been outlined yet.

Spain has "the right to a home" and "the right to a job" in it's constitution. It doesn't mean much as long as it stays on the realm of well-intentioned wishes without actions backing them.


The way things are going the whole Eurozone will soon be a desert with a few bloated banks dying of their success at draining the continent dry

[Owlbread]

I'm not waving it in your face, I'm answering Sheb's hypothetical.

Which was hypothetical. It isn't necessarily what is going to happen, so you don't need to remind us of what will.

[Culise]

Also, it's slightly different in that the two countries were of equal size. No one could force the other to stay in.

The Czechs were twice the size of the Slovaks, economically and population-wise, and only a minority in each nation supported division after the Divorce took place.  I don't know the ethnic breakdown of the army, but I would expect a similar situation there.  If the federalists had been willing to use military force, they could have given it a good shot, and it's really primarily with hindsight that we can say just how bad such a guerrilla war for independence would have been for both sides in a modern, European context - the Yugoslav War was only just warming up in 1991, and Kosovo was not yet a crisis point.  The reason the Velvet Divorce happened was because there was no political will to compromise or to federalize, and because elements on both sides saw advantages to a split (the Czechs thought that getting rid of the Slovak deadweight would boost their economy; the Slovaks thought that getting rid of Czech domination would also improve their economy).  Certainly, the population differential is smaller than the case of England and Scotland, but it's as much a question of political will as anything.  I highly doubt, if the SNP called for complete independence and somehow gained popular support for their cause, that Westminster would send the tanks in.  I just don't think Scotland/England is as big a precedent as it would seem to be.