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[Owlbread]

I often find it difficult to argue on behalf of joining the EU and the euro and so on because it's never really been my bag. Though I am open to the idea of being a member of the EU and I'm certainly in favour of greater European integration (it will never be at the expense of our national identities unlike the UK), I've always advocated Scotland being independent in the same vein as Norway with our own currency i.e. a Scottish dollar (or poond/groat if we're feeling nostalgic). If we used the pound until the financial crisis blows over maybe we could think about adopting an independent currency, then we can devalue it if we need to and so on.

We may find that by the time we have successfully adopted the dubloon, we may have found a way to negotiate with the new, stabilised EU and get what we really want from it.

[lordcooper]

I'm gonna mangle my metaphors and point out that no nation is an island any more.

[Owlbread]

I'm gonna mangle my metaphors and point out that no nation is an island any more.

Indeed, although some are more like islands than others - Switzerland, Norway and so on. If I was president of an independent Scotland, the first thing I would do is declare neutrality, use an independent currency and remain outwith the EU but within their various economic alliances/coalitions until it suits us to enter the EU again.

I mean, I agree with you, you know. The aim isn't to isolate ourselves and become an island or "Fortress Scotland" or whatever - I just think it's in our interests to hold back a bit and manage our own stuff as much as we can. Believe me, we would be very vocal in the international community as we aggressively promote our exports. Hell, we can out-Ireland the Irish when it comes to selling our national soul for cash.

They may have a warmer climate so they can produce more crops, but we can trump them any day with respect to high quality meat production. My ultimate goal would be to ensure that, like "Made in China" nowadays means the product is cheap, "Made/Produced in Scotland" will mean it is of a high quality and you're getting your money's worth.

[RedKing]

Hadrian's Wall II? 

[10ebbor10]

I'm gonna mangle my metaphors and point out that no nation is an island any more.

Indeed, although some are more like islands than others - Switzerland, Norway and so on. If I was president of an independent Scotland, the first thing I would do is declare neutrality, use an independent currency and remain outwith the EU but within their various economic alliances/coalitions until it suits us to enter the EU again.

Ie, you want to profit from Chengen, no import taxes, no export taxes, decreased bureaucracy, but not conform to guidelines, EU tax, and financial regulations.

Do I need to point out why this won't work?

[scriver]

Yeah. Sorry, Owlbread, but without England you're not going to have any say in the Union. Germany and France is going to impose whatever they want on you, just like they did on the rest of us small countries.

I'm still not convinced of that. I've heard assertions like that a lot but very little substance - plus, forgive me if I'm wrong but you are Swedish aren't you? I notice you don't use the euro, you use the kroner.

They are however obliged to start using the Euro as soon as they meet the correct criteria.

Sweden were already in the EU when the Euro thing began. Thus we could stay out of it. In also thinking about special rights and liberties or illegalities that doesn't suit the neoliberal EU core. For example, Sweden used to have several health-dangerous insecticides forbidden, but were forced to allow them by the EU. Likewise, we used to have harsh enforcements on bringing in animals without proper health checks and quarantines, as there was a while bunch of animal diseases we didn't, but we're no longer allowed to do that either. All in the name of free trade, of course.

[Owlbread]

Hadrian's Wall II? 

Bigger but more laser beams and the severed heads of our enemies on pikes. And... you know, made by us rather than a bearded Italian chap.

[Sheb]

Owlbread, what you're describing is what Cameron wants but failed to get. If the UK couldn't get it, you really think puny Scotland will be able to negociate for it?

[MonkeyHead]

Yea, nobody is going to be able to have thier cake and eat it - the way the EU is structured means it will want something from you if you want to play with thier toys. Any new small rebublic will probably have to kowtow quite a lot to get near the top table.

[10ebbor10]

The Euro project is older than the introduction of the coinage. In fact, the first coinage synchronization experiments started 15 years before. So, Sweden needs to join, however, some bureaucratic error resulted in the following:

Under the 1994 Treaty of Accession Sweden has to join the eurozone once it meets the necessary conditions.[2] Sweden maintains being part of ERM II is a required criterion and joining ERM II is voluntary,[3][4] giving Sweden a de facto opt out.

That has been/is being fixed however. If you join the EU now, you will probably need to join the Euro.


@scriver: That was I believe, a result of how the old system worked. Ie, before the EU president, countries got the leadership of various commisions and whatever they were called in turn. Meaning that they could force through propositions that suited them, with significantly less democratic influence*.

*Only the parliament.

[Owlbread]

It's difficult to judge, you would think you'd have at least some of the cake (i.e. you'd gain at least some of the things you've asked for in negotiations) but you only need to look at the EU's management of the Cypriot situation. They really can put their foot down.

Also, the main reason for looking at an independent currency I think is that we would be able to devalue the currency to lower the price of our exports, then when we stabilise again we can raise it. Maybe peg it to the pound or something.

[lordcooper]

I'm gonna mangle my metaphors and point out that no nation is an island any more.

Indeed, although some are more like islands than others - Switzerland, Norway and so on. If I was president of an independent Scotland, the first thing I would do is declare neutrality, use an independent currency and remain outwith the EU but within their various economic alliances/coalitions until it suits us to enter the EU again.

And what exactly is Scotland going to be doing to prop up it's economy.  England is definitely the commercial heart of the UK.  How would Scotland prevent England (or almost any other country) from annexing it through military means or diplomatic manoeuring?  Where would Scotlands diplomatic power come from?  How would you stop England screwing you over when it comes to currently shared infrastructure?  As much as I support Scottish independence ideologically, it doesn't seem like you'd be left in a strong position.

[Dutchling]

Scotland will be the new Africa, I tell you.

[10ebbor10]

It's difficult to judge, you would think you'd have at least some of the cake but you only need to look at the EU's management of the Cypriot situation. They Germany really can put their foot down.

FTFY (not really, but everybody knows who the main motivator was)

That was handled less the ideally, I'm afraid. We could have exscaped this whole hassle if we'd just given them the 18 billion they asked for, rather than 10 billion and measures to help things themselves. Problematic is that the majority of the remaining Greek corporations had stored their money on Cyprus* and it's highly probable that they'd need to fold or make significant cuts if they can't acces those reserves.


*Greece's taxation system changes as the governement does, and is ,like everything, rather corrupt.

Also, the main reason for looking at an independent currency I think is that we would be able to devalue the currency to lower the price of our exports, then when we stabilise again we can raise it. Maybe peg it to the pound or something.

The EU really doesn't like meddling with coinage to do that. We might not be able to tell China what to do (trying though), but I'm pretty sure we're going to regulate our own backyard.

[Owlbread]

And what exactly is Scotland going to be doing to prop up it's economy.  England is definitely the commercial heart of the UK.  How would Scotland prevent England (or almost any other country) from annexing it through military means or diplomatic manoeuring?  Where would Scotlands diplomatic power come from?  How would you stop England screwing you over when it comes to currently shared infrastructure?  As much as I support Scottish independence ideologically, it doesn't seem like you'd be left in a strong position.

If you understood the UK you would know there is absolutely no chance, zilch, zero, none, nyet chance of England annexing Scotland through military means or diplomatic manoeuvering. It's even less likely than North Korea annexing China. We actually have a strong sense of goodwill between our nations in the British Isles, even between ourselves and Ireland. It literally would not cross their mind.

When it comes to England screwing us over occasionally, infrastructure is shared with the Irish and we don't screw the Irish over in the way you're talking about. That's not to say England wouldn't screw us over at all - they probably would at some point in the distant future in which case we would have a diplomatic dispute about it. It's nothing to vote no about though. I'm sure we would become very, very strong allies in the event of Scottish independence.

Our economy is also far stronger than people commonly understand it to be. Though England is the commercial heart of the UK, Scotland has some of the largest oil reserves in the EU, we have a flourishing tourist industry (which would grow enormously with independence - I have a thousand ideas for it), we have an excellent agricultural industry, we have a multi-billion pound whisky industry (whisky and oil usually go together in these debates in terms of importance). Our economy is more varied than Norway's and Ireland's. There's also the renewable energy if you want that old chestnut, seeing as it was the SNP's intention to make Scotland the "Saudi Arabia of Renewables".