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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[BurnedToast]

If the problem is an economic one, the obvious solution appears to be to switch to European-style school financing - not finance the local school via local taxes, but all the schools via all the taxes taxes from everyone.

This would make sense, and I've wondered why we didn't do it this way to begin with.

But it's never going to happen. The wealthy aren't going to spend more and/or decrease the education funding for their children just so "the poors" can get a decent education and have a fair shot at life leech off them and suck the government teat.

In fact they've been trying to do the exact opposite and use private school vouchers to completely destroy the public school system for at least a decade now.

Letting people take guns in bar seems like a stupid idea though...

If someone is going to go in there and rob the place or commit a crime, they probably won't care about the sign outside the door saying "no guns allowed". That said, this law wouldn't make dealing with bar fights any easier.

The problem is not people who go in with the intent to rob the place, obviously, we can't stop them with a sign (if only it were so easy). The problem is nominally law-abiding people who get pissed off for whatever petty reason and decide to shoot someone.

Bars are just a particularly bad place, I really don't see how even the most ardent gun supporter can think that's a good idea.

[SealyStar]

The thing about letting the South secede is that it works to northern liberals' political benefit by all but guaranteeing them continuous control of the House, Senate, and especially presidency (once we get rid of the right-wing southerners), the entire north's economic benefit of not subsidizing the almost entire south's tax deficits (IIRC), and to the right-wing white conservative southerners' benefit by giving them a place to implement their ass-backwards policies freely.

The problem is that we have to sacrifice the protection and, in all likelihood, basic civil liberties of women, minorities, LGBT people, and non-Christians in the newly created nation of Dumbfuckistan.

[Sheb]

By the way, did you guys know that the Democrats actually won the last house elections? That is, they got more vote. But lost the House. Yay gerrymandering!

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The thing about letting the South secede is that it works to northern liberals' political benefit by all but guaranteeing them continuous control of the House, Senate, and especially presidency (once we get rid of the right-wing southerners), the entire north's economic benefit of not subsidizing the almost entire south's tax deficits (IIRC), and to the right-wing white conservative southerners' benefit by giving them a place to implement their ass-backwards policies freely.

The problem is that we have to sacrifice the protection and, in all likelihood, basic civil liberties of women, minorities, LGBT people, and non-Christians in the newly created nation of Dumbfuckistan.

I hope you are able to realize how the way you've gone about saying this is just a little bit offensive to Southerners. While the conservative stronghold down here is a problem, they're only a part (not even really a majority) of our society. Furthermore, I'm getting really sick and tired of people acting like my home is a problem to be gotten rid of.

By the way, did you guys know that the Democrats actually won the last house elections? That is, they got more vote. But lost the House. Yay gerrymandering!

An unfortunate reality until the use of algorithmic districting becomes commonplace. But even so, it will only buy the Republicans an election cycle or two until the demographic shift catches up with them, hard.

[mainiac]

By the way, did you guys know that the Democrats actually won the last house elections? That is, they got more vote. But lost the House. Yay gerrymandering!

Yuuuuuuuup.  People stayed home in 2010 and then surprise surprise they get politicians who dilute their vote.

[Owlbread]

I hope you are able to realize how the way you've gone about saying this is just a little bit offensive to Southerners. While the conservative stronghold down here is a problem, they're only a part (not even really a majority) of our society. Furthermore, I'm getting really sick and tired of people acting like my home is a problem to be gotten rid of.

Embrace it, MSH. Embrace the grievances and consider secession. You know it makes sense.

But I think the whole "the South are inbred redneck bible thumping gun loving far-right hillbillies" attitude is pretty disgraceful. Very, very unhelpful and I can only see scenarios where, joking aside, some groups of Southerners will feel even more distant and alienated from the North. I do view the attitude some people have towards the South (you know, the ones that cringe when they hear a Southern accent) as out and out prejudice.

I mean, when even a fellow Progressive like MSH feels like people are treating his home as a problem to be gotten rid of that's just not a good state of affairs.

[Culise]

The thing about letting the South secede is that it works to northern liberals' political benefit by all but guaranteeing them continuous control of the House, Senate, and especially presidency (once we get rid of the right-wing southerners), the entire north's economic benefit of not subsidizing the almost entire south's tax deficits (IIRC), and to the right-wing white conservative southerners' benefit by giving them a place to implement their ass-backwards policies freely.

The problem is that we have to sacrifice the protection and, in all likelihood, basic civil liberties of women, minorities, LGBT people, and non-Christians in the newly created nation of Dumbfuckistan.

I hope you are able to realize how the way you've gone about saying this is just a little bit offensive to Southerners. While the conservative stronghold down here is a problem, they're only a part (not even really a majority) of our society. Furthermore, I'm getting really sick and tired of people acting like my home is a problem to be gotten rid of.

By the way, did you guys know that the Democrats actually won the last house elections? That is, they got more vote. But lost the House. Yay gerrymandering!

An unfortunate reality until the use of algorithmic districting becomes commonplace. But even so, it will only buy the Republicans an election cycle or two until the demographic shift catches up with them, hard.

Not to mention that a good way to cripple yourself is to repeatedly partition yourself by cutting off any part of the country that's not "ideologically pure" enough.  Lop off the south to ensure Democratic control of the North.  Then, the Democrats starts infighting between the social liberals, progressives (or new liberals), centrists, and blue dogs, and we can solve that issue by lopping off the bits that don't toe the party line (after all, we've just set a precedent).  We end up with a whole bunch of Republics of Dave running around. 

[10ebbor10]

By the way, did you guys know that the Democrats actually won the last house elections? That is, they got more vote. But lost the House. Yay gerrymandering!

An unfortunate reality until the use of algorithmic districting becomes commonplace. But even so, it will only buy the Republicans an election cycle or two until the demographic shift catches up with them, hard.

Yup, once Gerrymandering fails, it'll collapse completely.

The thing about letting the South secede is that it works to northern liberals' political benefit by all but guaranteeing them continuous control of the House, Senate, and especially presidency (once we get rid of the right-wing southerners), the entire north's economic benefit of not subsidizing the almost entire south's tax deficits (IIRC), and to the right-wing white conservative southerners' benefit by giving them a place to implement their ass-backwards policies freely.

The problem is that we have to sacrifice the protection and, in all likelihood, basic civil liberties of women, minorities, LGBT people, and non-Christians in the newly created nation of Dumbfuckistan.

I hope you are able to realize how the way you've gone about saying this is just a little bit offensive to Southerners. While the conservative stronghold down here is a problem, they're only a part (not even really a majority) of our society. Furthermore, I'm getting really sick and tired of people acting like my home is a problem to be gotten rid of.

By the way, did you guys know that the Democrats actually won the last house elections? That is, they got more vote. But lost the House. Yay gerrymandering!

An unfortunate reality until the use of algorithmic districting becomes commonplace. But even so, it will only buy the Republicans an election cycle or two until the demographic shift catches up with them, hard.

Not to mention that a good way to cripple yourself is to repeatedly partition yourself by cutting off any part of the country that's not "ideologically pure" enough.  Lop off the south to ensure Democratic control of the North.  Then, the Democrats starts infighting between the social liberals, progressives (or new liberals), centrists, and blue dogs, and we can solve that issue by lopping off the bits that don't toe the party line (after all, we've just set a precedent).  We end up with a whole bunch of Republics of Dave running around. 

I don't see the problem. America is way to big a continent to have only 3 countries.

[Owlbread]

I'm still very much in favour of the independence of Hawaii, the Lakotah territories and Cascadia and such. Aztlan will come some day too, give it a few decades.

[Frumple]

I hope you are able to realize how the way you've gone about saying this is just a little bit offensive to Southerners. While the conservative stronghold down here is a problem, they're only a part (not even really a majority) of our society. Furthermore, I'm getting really sick and tired of people acting like my home is a problem to be gotten rid of.

I kinda' empathize with cutting the area loose. Or at least parts of it. Not sure if you came from one of the areas that actually aren't 90+% non-negligibly violent (did you know my most recent college class was able to cite at least three or four major race fights in schools they've been in, in the last 10-20 years? And we're not talking small brawls -- we're talking dozens on each side, happening in different schools, different areas, etc. It's still a goddamn problem.), viciously corrupt (we're talking dodge federal investigations into pedophilia corrupt, here.), bigots, but... I did. Florida would be better off if my home town and most of the surrounding area mysteriously vanished into the aether. I dig people thinking my home is a problem to be gotten rid of, because it is.

Also understand that a lot of the area isn't exactly like that, and it tends to get better as you go further north (or further south -- mid/south florida is a seriously different place). Still. Too much is. Not something I'd actually advocate, but there's definitely days I half wish someone would just firebomb this hellhole and put all of us out of everyone else's misery. Rather we just improve things than cut it loose, but... it tempts.

[Culise]

I'm still very much in favour of the independence of Hawaii, the Lakotah territories and Cascadia and such. Aztlan will come some day too, give it a few decades.

Hmmm, even over the objections of their inhabitants?  I understand that you're Scottish and thus have most of your experience with a genuine independence movement, but of those three, the myriad independence parties in Hawaii can't even get enough votes together to win a single seat in the local legislature, Cascadia is barely more than a joke with a larger presence on the Internet than on the ground, and the Lakotah independence movement is probably the only one that is even remotely plausible, but even its independence movement was a handful of people with little popular support, next to no support among the tribal leadership, and who are significantly hampered by an avowed refusal to recognize the sitting elected governments of the Lakota nation (due to what they term "stay-by-the-fort", that is, collaborationist tendencies). 

[stabbymcstabstab]

The closest to independence Hawaii is going to get is the natives getting the same rights as Mainland natives including their own government.

[Owlbread]

Hmmm, even over the objections of their inhabitants?  I understand that you're Scottish and thus have most of your experience with a genuine independence movement, but of those three, the myriad independence parties in Hawaii can't even get enough votes together to win a single seat in the local legislature, Cascadia is barely more than a joke with a larger presence on the Internet than on the ground, and the Lakotah independence movement is probably the only one that is even remotely plausible, but even its independence movement was a handful of people with little popular support, next to no support among the tribal leadership, and who are significantly hampered by an avowed refusal to recognize the sitting elected governments of the Lakota nation (due to what they term "stay-by-the-fort", that is, collaborationist tendencies).

I never said any of these ideas were likely to come to fruition, I'm just saying what I think is right. I'd never force those areas to become independent regardless of the wishes of the people, I'd rather convince them to do so.

[RedKing]

Being a Southern progressive has long been the shittiest political position in the country. Because you get vilified from both sides.

I remember when I was out in Oregon and someone asked where I was from. When I said North Carolina, their response was "I'm sorry." I just kinda stared at the guy for a minute and then moved on to talking to someone else. (and no, I don't think he meant this in reference to our current state government)

[Culise]

The closest to independence Hawaii is going to get is the natives getting the same rights as Mainland natives including their own government.

Yeah, and it wouldn't be a terrible thing to happen, either; the mainland natives have their own semi-autonomous government organizations, after all.  The Akaka Bill has been floating around since the turn of the century, and it doesn't seem such a dangerous thing to me. 

I never said any of these ideas were likely to come to fruition, I'm just saying what I think is right. I'd never force those areas to become independent regardless of the wishes of the people, I'd rather convince them to do so.

Mmm.  I disagree in that I believe that a decision based on popular sovereignty based on the opinions of those affected is the closest to "right" that you can get in these circumstances, regardless of the outcome of that decision, but I can respect that, especially since you place the root of that belief in the wishes of the locals as well rather than forcing such an opinion against their will.