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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 838691 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2385 on: October 01, 2013, 01:25:55 pm »

More treason from the far-right.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's actually literally correct, isn't it? Attempting armed rebellion to overthrow the United States is the most blatant possible example, right? It's not just undermining the United States or something that seems like it should be treason, it is actually the clearest imaginable thing you could point to if you had to explain the concept.
Well yes, that's why I called it treason.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2386 on: October 01, 2013, 01:27:37 pm »

Keep in mind, there are some LIBERALS itching for a default, too.
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Baffler

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2387 on: October 01, 2013, 01:28:17 pm »

The government shutdown will not dissuade the tea party from their path. An end to the federal government is one of their ultimate goals. This is only blood in the water to them. They will not stop.

Of course not. But it might push more voters away from them and reduce the number of them that manage to get reelected.
Earliest that would impact them would be November 2014 -- 13 months from now.
If they manage to force a default, 2014 elections will be the least of their worries.

If (as I'm suspecting will be the outcome) they force Obama to resort to some kind of end-run to avoid default (Constitutional or otherwise), it'll just fire up their base more.

Besides, many of them believe (or least espouse the belief) that a default would be a GOOD thing. Tough love/shock therapy/whatever. It's a snake oil that they can sell, knowing there's little chance the grown-ups in charge will actually allow it to happen. Then when the grown-ups step in and avoid a default, they can tell their followers, "See?? We were just about to fix everything, when the mean nasty government overlords stopped us to please their corporate masters/those welfare leeches/illegal immigrants/anybody that's not like you..."

I disagree. I think most of them do genuinely want to cause a default for ideological reasons. Problem is, that'll fuck everything six ways from Sunday. At least a portion of the GOP establishment knows this just as well as the Democrats, but there isn't a damn thing they can do about it. If Obama does cave to their demands it will get them more influence, hell a good number of them might even keep their jobs past November. But they seem to actually want to accomplish their ideological objectives. Which would be commendable if it weren't for the fact that their ideological objectives include pulling the self-destruct lever, and all kinds of reactionary social policies.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 01:30:14 pm by Baffler »
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Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2388 on: October 01, 2013, 01:31:39 pm »

I don't want a default, but if it does happen at least it will be an opportunity to make the country stand up to Congress.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

da_nang

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2389 on: October 01, 2013, 01:31:45 pm »

There really ought to be a mechanism to prevent deadlock. Flip a coin or something.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2390 on: October 01, 2013, 01:34:22 pm »

In most states, flipping a coin actually is the legally proscribed method of dealing with an election in which the vote is literally tied. To my knowledge, this has never actually been employed.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Baffler

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2391 on: October 01, 2013, 01:37:14 pm »

Who was that guy in the video you linked earlier, MSH? My google-fu is weak. Is he an important figure? Or just some guy?
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
Location subject to periodic change.
Baffler likes silver, walnut trees, the color green, tanzanite, and dogs for their loyalty. When possible he prefers to consume beef, iced tea, and cornbread. He absolutely detests ticks.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2392 on: October 01, 2013, 01:40:21 pm »

Who was that guy in the video you linked earlier, MSH? My google-fu is weak. Is he an important figure? Or just some guy?
Rick Joyner, head of MorningStar Ministries. He appears on Right Wing Watch fairly often, sometimes alongside other frequently featured nutjobs.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

wierd

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2393 on: October 01, 2013, 01:45:27 pm »

I dunno.  I am torn between the self-destructive impulse to just watch it all burn (despite the consequences for myself and everyone else), and the impulse that drives a desire to see the obvious failings of the system be fixed, in a really real way.

Take the issue with the "Treason guy" linked.  Our model of governance was never intended to have the federal government provide so many services to so many states. The fed's enumerated functions are to 1) regulate interstate commerce, 2) Negotiate foriegn trade and relations 3) Create regulatory frameworks to prevent the states falling into total anarchy, and 4) to manage the armed forces since it cant be effectively managed by a room full of screaming senators and governors.

That's really all it was ever intended for. Nearly all of the services on the table right now should be at the state level. ACA should have been a regulatory policy, and not an actual federal program. Same with social security, or medicaid/medicare and pals.  I REALLY dont want to hear the impulse gut reaction decrying me as a teaparty idiot, so please try to avoid doing so. Unlike those tools, I am capable and willing to think for myself, and don't need their snake oil. The really real truth is that yes, that IS the way our government was meant to run. It outright says so in the constitution regardless of any ideological feelings anyone may have on the matter.  This is analogous to the way the EU member states are supposed to operate; Each is supposed to still have autonomy for domestic policies, but to have a harmonized body of law covering the movements of people between them, and of how they will engage in trade with each other. The EU parliament and council are equivalent to our Fed.

Being upset by having the government trample over that system by extinguishing those autonomies, and being left with no legal recourse to set it right again, is it really wrong to suggest that revolution/secession is the only option to return to the as-stated method of governance? Not saying it is correct, just asking if it is really wrong.  Is the "Treason" against the Federal government, or is the "Treason" against the more ephemeral "America"? No, the two are NOT the same thing.

Yes-- Letting that system hold sway instead of a top down authority model like has been steadily hamfisting itself in place like a damned police state for the past 70 years has some very negative possibilities, such as some states choosing to teach bullshit about intelligent design in public school, some states running themselves into the ground and becoming shitholes, and other such issues. But it does not permit the police state, and increases freedom. Being able to shoot yourself in the foot in those capacities is a manifestation of that freedom, even if it is a deleterious one. Part of upholding the right to free speech and freedom of expression, is upholding the right of stupid people to say and do stupid things.

If the current system can be cut back hard on its excesses and abuses, it behooves all of us to shoot for that goal. If it cant, and staunchly refuses to budge an inch in the power grab, isn't revolution the only remaining option?  Eventually, becoming a "Traitor" is the only remaining option in the face of that trend. That is the sad reality. 

As such, I am a bit disturbed, both by the existence of the video, and also of the gut-reaction others have had concerning it.  --Even more so, given that in a horribly twisted way, the guy is actually correct. He and I just have differences of opinion on the severity needed before such extreme action become necessary.
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GreatJustice

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2394 on: October 01, 2013, 02:04:07 pm »

According to my American friends, the bald eagles have all died, the roads have vanished, criminals run free and the terrorists have won thanks to those damn bomb throwing Republican anarchists. Truly the end is nigh (also stocks are up for some reason).

I like how people are falling for Washington Monument Syndrome writ large, though.
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The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

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RedKing

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2395 on: October 01, 2013, 02:08:00 pm »

@wierd:

Consider though, that your decentralized Federal system was intended to govern roughly 3.5 million people in an era where it took weeks to travel from one end of the country to the other.
That's why they left it so that we could change and update our system of governance as needed. As we have done. Some people don't like those changes, but that's insufficient grounds for armed rebellion. Or even financial/fiscal sabotage.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2396 on: October 01, 2013, 02:09:23 pm »

According to my American friends, the bald eagles have all died, the roads have vanished, criminals run free and the terrorists have won thanks to those damn bomb throwing Republican anarchists. Truly the end is nigh (also stocks are up for some reason).

I like how people are falling for Washington Monument Syndrome writ large, though.
And yet, the actual Washington Monument has been closed and will remain closed into 2014 due to earthquake damage.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

wierd

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2397 on: October 01, 2013, 02:09:47 pm »

Redking:  The proscribed method for such change is constitutional amendment. Not abuse of the commerce clause.

No such amendments have been passed.
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RedKing

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2398 on: October 01, 2013, 02:14:56 pm »

Redking:  The proscribed method for such change is constitutional amendment. Not abuse of the commerce clause.

No such amendments have been passed.
There's nothing Constitutional about the debt ceiling either. The laws of governance are more than just the Constitution.

Regardless, the ACA was settled through legislative means -- a bill was introduced and passed in both houses of the Congress, signed by the President, and upheld (mostly) in the Supreme Court. The parts that weren't upheld were removed. All three branches of government have had their crack at this thing and signed off on it through the prescribed mechanisms of government. There is nothing illegitimate about it.
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

wierd

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Re: FJ's American Politics Megathread Two: SEDECIM Dies Donec Finis Venerit
« Reply #2399 on: October 01, 2013, 02:25:38 pm »

The issue is that the authority to govern comes from the powers presented by the constitution, and the powers the government has exercised to establish those laws is not founded on the powers it was provided. That makes the foundation of the law itself unsound.  The Supreme court has unfortunately upheld the ACA and other such unfounded pieces of legislation, but they have also upended many intrinsic checks and balances in thier side of government as well, by doing such nasty things as making jury nullification no longer a right, but just a power. (A power you are not legally allowed to employ I might add.)  and other such shenanigans. The term "Regulatory capture" comes to mind.

Simply because the pimply butted assholes in the fancy chairs on capitol hill say something is legal and substantiated, does not mean that it actually is. (See for instance, the drama over FISA courts, the NSA, and the people who actually wrote the patriot act.)

Because the constitution was never amended to permit that set of powers being weilded by the government, there is no legal foundation for them to produce that law, making the act of passing it illegal. I dont care what the law is about, they dont have the power to regulate domestic issues like that. That power is reserved to the individual citizens and to the individual states, as the citizens choose to allot to the states-- as written.

If they pass a constitutional amendment saying that they can be little dictators, and get the 2/3 majority signature, then what they do after that point is perfectly legal.  Until they do so, it is not.
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