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[Taricus]

I'd be more worried on how much said renegade charges personally

[Scoops Novel]

Not necessarily too old. The way i hear it, they make exceptions. As for op... by the time I've got that you guys should be physical gods, and I'll likely have been untrained with my new body and unindoctrinated.

[nenjin]

Not necessarily too old. The way i hear it, they make exceptions. As for op... by the time I've got that you guys should be physical gods, and I'll likely have been untrained with my new body and unindoctrinated.

Again, this is not how it works in-universe. The reason for the age exception is because older bodies can't deal with the stress of adapting to implanted organs. They don't recovery from the surgeries as well and their bodies often reject the implants.

And they don't implant space marine organs THEN train and indoctrinate. It's the other way around. Space Marine organs are priceless to the chapters, they only implant them in people that have already shown the strength of character to be Space Marines. They gradually introduce more implants until they're ready to make an initiate a full Space Marine, at which point they get the final organs implanted.

In the end, a renegade Space Marine can end up only being moderately more powerful than normal humans. If you take away their Space Marine weapons and armor, they're essentially a human with a high Unnatural Strength and Toughness Bonus, and a handful of lower tier traits like Heightened Senses. From a fully fleshed out perspective, yes, they do have several advantages humans either have to buy with experience or can't ever get. From a purely combat perspective though, without Space Marine weapons and armor, they're basically just super tough and super strong.

[Scoops Novel]

You're point is... , however, i have a feeling said rookies have to take some time to adjust to said stats. By exceptions, i mean such things as the lion's friend and betrayer, who was specially modified. Then again, who said i wont be young? .

[Criptfeind]

but think of the destruction!

Ehhhhhhh. I don't think you understand how powerful Rogue Traders actually are. Marines have impressive physical power and impressive augmentations and weapons. But Rogue Traders have Spaceships with Laser batteries and armies. From a destruction standpoint Rogue Traders are not going to be helped that much by a single rogue Marine. Realistically, they could hire and keep a whole squad of Ork for more destructive power with less issues. Xeno Mercenaries can be overlooked by the Inquisition if the Rogue Trader plays his cards right. I don't think a rogue Marine ever could be.

You're point is... , however, i have a feeling said rookies have to take some time to adjust to said stats. By exceptions, i mean such things as the lion's friend and betrayer, who was specially modified. Then again, who said i wont be young? .

What do you mean you won't be young? You would be wanting to play a eight year old at the start of the game?

Also, you are right, some people have had incomplete modifications. When they were super special. What could you possibly do to prove yourself enough that that would ever apply to you?

[Digital Hellhound]

Okay, yeah, fair point. There's still the prestige of having a real-life Astartes at your beck and call. Xeno mercs are everywhere, renegade marines ain't. Plus Imperials of many worlds wouldn't recognize him as a renegade at all.

[Scoops Novel]

Last i checked, they recruit late teens. Might have toned it down, who knows. That question, my friend, is my answer. *I'm sure i couldn't wrangle my way into, say, eversor implants without the psychopathy, using mutant remains gathered from a radical, normal inquisitor implants, being changed psychically, lost, secret or Xenos technology, careful contact with the warp tyranid style (though I'll admit that's unlikely), or simply being too useful to allow to die, mind controlling an apothecary, etc.

On the recognition notes, for some absurd reason the dark angels traitors seem to get way with looking like massive men or perhaps mutants (or simply adapted) such as ogryns.

[nenjin]

They tend to recruit early teens or even pre-teens. Plenty of fluff stories about 10 year old initiates getting beat up by their squad instructors or doing live-fire exercises.

[Criptfeind]

Implantation starts at 10-14. And that is after training.

So your plan is to
1: Be part of a super massive important galaxy shaking event chain.
2: Live though it.
3: Be a giant hero in it.
4: Be lucky enough to be view as a big enough hero to make a exception to rules practically unbroken though thousands of years.
5: Actually somehow be lucky enough to be compatible with the implants.
6: Not be instantly found out for the traitor you are.
7: Have your mind survive the conditioning intact enough that you still want to go rogue afterwards.
8: Surviving abandoning your squad.
9: Find a Rogue trader who would take you in.
10: Not instantly be hunted down and killed by other marines.

Keeping in mind all of this would be done in a somewhat random fairly brutal game. 1-5 are based on shear massive luck. 7, 8, and 10 are almost impossible. And 6 is pretty much flat out impossible.

Also, most of your small text seemed to be gibberish, but one thing that poked out since you said it before? "Too important to be allowed to die" Really has nothing to do with being a marine, and really has nothing to do with humanity in the 40k universe.

[nenjin]

I'd say 7 - 10 aren't totally outside the realm of possibility.

#7, Space Marines do suffer cognitive dissonance when the right situation arises. Being ordered to do horrible things in the name of the Imperium, being ordered to act in a manner counter to Chapter doctrine (either by the Chapter or other forces). And, of course, the corrupting power of Chaos. Sometimes just remaining true to your understanding of principle can turn one into a heretic, if it disagrees with what the larger Imperial authority wishes or believes. Some common themes are: victory at any cost as an act of heresy, refusal to carry out an unconscionable order as an act of heresy and desertion as an act of heresy.

#8, any number of situations could make this possible. The easiest of which is just your squad assuming you died in some catastrophic incident like an orbital strike, cut-off from the squad in battle, a drop pod hit during descent or that malfunctions and goes off course, lost in the Warp, ect...

#9, actually pretty likely. Rogue Traders are, among all Imperial citizens, the most likely to embrace things "outside of Imperial law." I'd think a former Space Marine's motivation for playing body guard to a rogue trader is more important than whether any rogue trader would conceivably retain them.

#10, There's a gut instinct, I believe, to view the Imperium as All-Seeing and All-Knowing. But the fluff goes on, and on, and on about how there's millions of worlds, billions upon billions of people, long-range communication is slow and at times unreliable, and travel is abysmally unpredictable. Now, the Space Marines are separate from the Imperial organs of governance and have a smaller clique to keep track of. But if you take into account the possible situations above...really the only way a Space Marine's former chapter would know they'd gone rogue (instead of dying) is: meeting them, hearing about them or having a Psyker do some sort of reading.

That said, in all the 40k reading I've ever done, post-heresy, there's never been an instance of a traitor actually making into the ranks of the Space Marines as an initiate. The screening is simply process simply goes on too long, and is incredibly invasive.

[Criptfeind]

That is true, nine is likely the easiest of the lot, which is why I left it out of my reasoning as to why it won't happen. And you are right that instantly is fairly incorrect. But being a Rogue traders attache is not exactly a low profile job, and being a spess marine is not exactly a low profile job.  (Also you hardly need the former chapter to be involved, I am fairly sure that if any legitimate servant of the empire finds out what is going on the news will eventually make its way to someone who will bring it all down. I am thinking that any rogue trader ship is most likely stocked full of spies from the Inquisition and other organizations) Doing both at the same time. Still, it's possible I guess.

7 I would say is much harder. Because it's not just splitting off in the normal way that some marine do. It's actually surviving the process.

Also, are there any marines that have gone rogue, but not chaos? Because there is a world of difference between falling to the clutches of evil gods, and falling while avoiding those same clutches.

[Taricus]

Just ask the alpha legion

[nenjin]

Also you hardly need the former chapter to be involved, I am fairly sure that if any legitimate servant of the empire finds out what is going on the news will eventually make its way to someone who will bring it all down.

Lots of variables in this kind of consideration, it could go either way. My gut would say that, in a decade, word might filter around and reach the right ears. But consider the Renegade one person among a billion times a billion Imperial Citizens, on a ship that goes beyond the edge of Imperial Space or any place it really feels like. That's why I feel like, short of finding an psyker to divine the truth or whereabouts of the Renegade, or literally walking around busy Imperial cities with your 8-foot-tall self, it's not impossible to stay anonymous.

I am thinking that any rogue trader ship is most likely stocked full of spies from the Inquisition and other organizations) Doing both at the same time. Still, it's possible I guess.

Rogue traders are pretty saavy and it's hard to be a smuggler when your crew is lousy with people who might talk. It's not impossible, but that sounds to me more like a plot thread than a general truism.

Also, are there any marines that have gone rogue, but not chaos? Because there is a world of difference between falling to the clutches of evil gods, and falling while avoiding those same clutches.

Plenty. They're Renegades (not to be confused with the Horus Heresy definition of Renegade.) They sometimes band together in packs and commit piracy to survive or pass the centuries away. They're not Traitor Legion Space Marines (because they didn't live during the Heresy and haven't tried to join the Traitor Legions), just Space Marines who play by their own rules and live only for themselves. They may or may not have fallen to Chaos, either because that's the direction they were heading anyways or because their morals are shifting and they're doing things to survive that make them vulnerable to Chaos' influence. Still, some remain mostly free of corruption and a live "steal what you can, take no shit" life style.

Just ask the alpha legion

Pretty much. Although they have an agenda of actively taking down the Imperium, something most other Renegades don't aspire to.

[Criptfeind]

Just ask the alpha legion

I thought the alpha legion was actually a chaos legion. Guess you learn something new everyday.

Rogue traders are pretty saavy and it's hard to be a smuggler when your crew is lousy with people who might talk. It's not impossible, but that sounds to me more like a plot thread than a general truism.

I don't think most people actually care though when Rogue traders do things like smuggling and such, even playing with Xeno artifacts can be easy to excuse for a powerful enough one. "It's more trouble then it is worth." is different from "We have no idea." Also crimes that take place over a much shorter period would be less likely to be prosecuted.

Of course, that brings up the question of: How big of a crime is harboring a rogue marine? Assuming rogue and not actually chaos I would think that it's certainly a crime to small to prosecute a very powerful rogue traitor. But how powerful do you need to be? I have no idea.

[nenjin]

How big of a crime is harboring a rogue marine? Assuming rogue and not actually chaos I would think that it's certainly a crime to small to prosecute a very powerful rogue traitor. But how powerful do you need to be? I have no idea.

As much as harboring any other heretic if you want to take the hardline approach to it. The Inquisition would be interested in prosecuting a Space Marine Renegade and they can be notoriously indiscriminate when they want to be. To the Marine's Chapter, being part of the collateral damage as they go after the renegade wouldn't bother them. And if you knew they were a renegade marine, they might decide to kill you.

I thought the alpha legion was actually a chaos legion. Guess you learn something new everyday.

They are a Traitor Legion, but they're the only (that I know of) that stayed in Imperial Space after the end of the Horus Heresy. The other legions mostly hang out in the Eye of Terror when they're not running about being all Chaosy. Alpha Legion fragmented into cells at the end of the Heresy and spread across the Imperium, and works clandestinely inside Imperial Territory to undermine it. They're the least exposed to Chaos because they haven't been swimming in warp energy for the last 10,000 years. But to the Imperium they're still traitors and heretics for their role in the Hours Heresy and breaking away from the Imperium. The important point is that they're renegades, but they're not living for themselves, their primary goal is undermining the Imperium.