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[Farmerbob]

Diggles are intelligent, and social.  They lay eggs.  They live underground

What are their temperment?

"if Gaslight Games isn't terribly concerned about defining the minutae of Diggles, I don't think they would object to Toady imply making things up"

If they are ill defined then they are a terrible inclusion.

They arn't the Jabberwocks where they were intentionally ill defined so that they could be anything.

They are ill defined because they are a standard RPG monster. Heck they seem like a reference to the Prinny given their appearance and general stature.

In order to fit in the game the Diggles need to be defined, they need to fit within the game and the context of the world. In a mod that is easier but this is the base game. Remember the Diggles do not work the way the game defines as well (which is intentional) meaning that to function you also have to redefine the diggles and alter them.

It's an Easter Egg, not a documentary.  If Gaslamp says it's fine to easter egg diggles, they will either provide the information Toady needs, or they will let Toady make it up to fit his world.  Arguing that you cannot add a FANTASY creature to a game because you don't know what it REALLY is, seems just a bit, err, silly.

The only important questions here are whether or not Toady is interested in doing it, and if so, is Gaslamp Games willing to allow it.

Everything else is trivial and meaningless as an argument because if an agreement is made, Gaslamp Games will either give Toady the information he needs, or Toady will make it up.

The whole purpose of the thread here is to introduce the idea.  It Toady likes it, and Gaslamp likes it, it will be pathetically trivial to make it work without impacting Dwarf fortress in any significant manner.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Where are there Jabberwockies in DF? There are jabberers in DF, but they're not much like Jabberwocky AFAIK.

Anyways...to broaden the scope of this discussion, are there any other indie games with creatures that would be Fun to include in DF? I see absolutely no reason to only add Diggles.

[Farmerbob]

Where are there Jabberwockies in DF? There are jabberers in DF, but they're not much like Jabberwocky AFAIK.

Anyways...to broaden the scope of this discussion, are there any other indie games with creatures that would be Fun to include in DF? I see absolutely no reason to only add Diggles.

I suggested diggles because Gaslamp has LOTS of DF references.  I don't see why Toady would be limited to just diggles though.  Up to him.

In the end this might be a discussion that Toady simply doesn't want to have at all, in which case it will certainly go nowhere, and that's fine.

I'll bring it up the next time I make a donation and make sure he saw the thread.

[Capntastic]

It Toady likes it, and Gaslamp likes it, it will be pathetically trivial to make it work without impacting Dwarf fortress in any significant manner.

Yeah, obviously, but that point doesn't do anything to explain why he should ask to add Diggles instead of Moogles, Chocobos, Pikachus, Zerglings, etc.  If your whole point is "it would be cool if he added this thing from another game I like", then yeah, I get it, but I still think it's a bad idea. 

You sidestepped the immersion point I brought up entirely. 

Then you simultaneously say it's easy to add Diggles since they're so undefined that adding them would not change the game in any meaningful way.

Do you see why this isn't a convincing line of reasoning?

Let's not even go into the very real issue that if Toady starts a precedent of "returning the favor" to things that reference his game, he'll very quickly get backlogged/accused of playing favorites/exploited by people who namecheck DF just to get tagged back, etc.

[Farmerbob]

It Toady likes it, and Gaslamp likes it, it will be pathetically trivial to make it work without impacting Dwarf fortress in any significant manner.

Yeah, obviously, but that point doesn't do anything to explain why he should ask to add Diggles instead of Moogles, Chocobos, Pikachus, Zerglings, etc.  If your whole point is "it would be cool if he added this thing from another game I like", then yeah, I get it, but I still think it's a bad idea. 

You sidestepped the immersion point I brought up entirely. 

Then you simultaneously say it's easy to add Diggles since they're so undefined that adding them would not change the game in any meaningful way.

Do you see why this isn't a convincing line of reasoning?

Let's not even go into the very real issue that if Toady starts a precedent of "returning the favor" to things that reference his game, he'll very quickly get backlogged/accused of playing favorites/exploited by people who namecheck DF just to get tagged back, etc.

I sidestepped the immersion argument because it made absolutely no sense to me.  To me, the immersion effect of DF has absolutely nothing to do with individual pieces.  It has everything to do with how those pieces interact.  A diggle is just another animal, and with a few lines of code, it's function in the game could be made to interact appropriately with every other item in the game.

If you want to get into the whole practical application side of an easter egg policy, your concern about the "returning the favor" aspect of DF is legitimate, and would need to be a concern.

What I would suggest, if Toady wants to wash his hands of the whole thing so he cannot take any meaningful criticism from Y game for failing to put X critter in the game would be to allow the folks in the DF community here to vote for inclusions with their donations.  If you donate $10 or more, you get to suggest a critter.  The critter with the most votes wins.  If there's a tie, it comes to the forums for a vote-off.  One critter per major release.  In other words, people vote with their donations, and every now and then Toady adds one easter egg critter.

The above is just one way it could be handled with minimal fuss.

[Neonivek]

sidestepped the immersion argument because it made absolutely no sense to me.  To me, the immersion effect of DF has absolutely nothing to do with individual pieces.  It has everything to do with how those pieces interact.  A diggle is just another animal, and with a few lines of code, it's function in the game could be made to interact appropriately with every other item in the game

Immersion works when all the peices fit together and create a flow that allows the player to be sucked in. It is disturbed when anything interupts that flow. In otherwords one individual peice can hurt the flow.

For example the over abundance of Animalmen when they first were released, or still I don't know in the current release, was an immersion breaker. Their numbers needed to be severely toned down.

What I would suggest, if Toady wants to wash his hands of the whole thing so he cannot take any meaningful criticism from Y game for failing to put X critter in the game would be to allow the folks in the DF community here to vote for inclusions with their donations.  If you donate $10 or more, you get to suggest a critter.  The critter with the most votes wins.  If there's a tie, it comes to the forums for a vote-off.  One critter per major release.  In other words, people vote with their donations, and every now and then Toady adds one easter egg critter.

The above is just one way it could be handled with minimal fuss.

Dear goodness No! While I do want a critter drive, a "Anything goes" critter drive is something that can go horribly wrong especially since Dwarf Fortress is a simulation.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Incidentally, I started a thread about more Sponsorship Drives earlier. I realized it fails to include the Diggles, but you could bring an idea like that up there.

Anyways...

To broaden the scope of this discussion, are there any other indie games with creatures that would be Fun to include in DF? I see absolutely no reason to only add Diggles.

[Farmerbob]

sidestepped the immersion argument because it made absolutely no sense to me.  To me, the immersion effect of DF has absolutely nothing to do with individual pieces.  It has everything to do with how those pieces interact.  A diggle is just another animal, and with a few lines of code, it's function in the game could be made to interact appropriately with every other item in the game

Immersion works when all the peices fit together and create a flow that allows the player to be sucked in. It is disturbed when anything interupts that flow. In otherwords one individual peice can hurt the flow.

For example the over abundance of Animalmen when they first were released, or still I don't know in the current release, was an immersion breaker. Their numbers needed to be severely toned down.

If crundles don't break immersion for you, a subterranean bird certainly won't, LOL.

[Capntastic]

If crundles don't break immersion for you, a subterranean bird certainly won't, LOL.

Crundles were made for DF by Toady and fit in with the general tone of the game (low fantasy grimy creatures).  Diggles have rubbery drills on their faces and are from a game that is far more comedic than DF and actively satirizes the sort of things DF aims to do.

[DG]

I'm willing to bet that the Tarn brothers were unaware of what the term crundle means to some people when inventing the creature. Obviously they should trawl through urban dictionary before proceeding from now on.

[Neonivek]

I'm willing to bet that the Tarn brothers were unaware of what the term crundle means to some people when inventing the creature. Obviously they should trawl through urban dictionary before proceeding from now on.

Given Grendle is often pronounced Grundle (By me) I wouldn't be surprised if it is a coincidence.

[10ebbor10]

The point is subtility, adding Diggles isn't really a subtle shout-out. Most DoD shoutouts are, and that's good.

As for breaking immersion, Dwarf fortress aims to be a generic fantasy world simulator. The diggle, being the mascot of a single game, doesn't really fit in. It reminds you of a game, therefore reminding you of the fact that DF is a game, rather than a different world.

A much better and sublter shoutout would be to add Dredmor(yeah, the word) to one of the random name generation thingies. Maybe for mad wizards, when we get those.

[Neonivek]

I tried to think of a subtle way of doing that...

Dread and Moor

But Moor's definition doesn't fit something that could be used.

[10ebbor10]

Or you know, just litteraly add the name to the list. It's just a name after all, and it sounds sufficiently wizardy.

[Glanzor]

Ever wondered why Dwarf Fortress doesn't have Hobbits or Orks unlike almost every other fantasy game ever? It's obvious (to me) that Toady is actively trying to keep his game free from other people's intellectual property and I'm sure he has a reason to do so.

Hrm, I'm not quite sure I agree with you that the whole purpose of the game is immersion, I'd say that the whole purpose of the game is to have fun. 

You know how Toady and Threetoe keep calling DF a "fantasy world simulator"? I don't think that is a joke. There is also a lot of talk about reducing "gamey" elements as much as possible.
It always felt to me like DF was supposed to be a simulation first and a fun game second (not that that is necessary a contradiction or anything, but still).