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[Bluerobin]

Oh, see I didn't know that. I thought they wouldn't cast it if the fatigue would kill them, but I don't have a whole lot of experience with 100+ fatigue, mostly just the 50 from Thunder Strikes.

[Karlito]

The rules are both complex and poorly documented. It was only recently at the end of Round 9 when I started casting a bunch of battlefield buffs that I got a handle on it myself.

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   I don't actually have any real experience with the stuff. In my games against the AI my strategy tended towards throw chaff at AI till someone loses. Seeing as the AI also uses basically the same tactic I tended to win if I managed to grab land quick enough. I hope to expand my ability to use magic on the battlefield in this game.

[gman8181]

Yeah, I've played around a lot with both early age and middle age Ermor in single player.  I don't think it has made me a great player but it has given me a sense of appreciation for the strength of magic in combat especially with the rather frustrating but effective communions.

[Endymion]

Oh communions. I dread the turn when I'll have to field one of those. Which seems like might happen much sooner than would be usual for EA Agartha this game-- I've captured a province that provides astral 1 recruits AND I received a crystal matrix (Misc that makes holder a communion master) through a random event. Of course I'd likely screw up something or other and horribly murder my communion slaves to death trying to cast some high level spell that the slaves have 0 paths in. *cough* Darkness *cough*

Alternatively I could maybe get a reverse combat communion going. Thug up a bunch of those cheap mages, have them communion slave and then have the master cast a bunch of self-buffs before sending the lot of them into combat.

The best strategy, however, is probably to not even think about touching the subject with a 10 foot pole.

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   I understand the communion thing in theory but I would not want to chance it till a bit of SP testing myself. Plus my nation doesn't have cheap astral ages so its not like I have a chance to use it this game.

[gman8181]

Haha, yeah it took me a quite a while to realize that the first trick to effective communions is having a huge slave to master ratio.  In my single player games I would normally give each master about 8 communion slaves (which also raises the magic levels by 3) just so the slaves wouldn't die when I started casting really high level spells.  Sadly for me Lanka isn't exactly an astral powerhouse, so the closest available option would be sabbath communions and I think I would rather lose the game than go that route.

As far as darkness... well I don't need to worry about casting that so much considering I have a summon that autocasts it in battle.  Unfortunately those guys are very expensive and they even require upkeep, which I find odd for a blood summon.  Chances are I'll only summon like 3 tops.  Utterdark might also be a rather risky option if you're okay with everyone hating your guts.

[ThtblovesDF]

Thanks guys,

so if a spell costs more then 100 fatigue, it'll cost 2 gems (or just double?) - does the cost increase to 3 gems for a 1 gem spell at a certain point?

[Endymion]

So, a spell's gem cost (as in the spell description's gem cost) is 1 gem per 100 fatigue. So a 100 or 150 fatigue spell needs 1 gem, a 200 fatigue spell needs 2, a 400 fatigue spell needs 4, etc. etc.

Fatigue, however, is reduced for mages that have more than the necessary paths. I /think/ the formula for this is fatigue cost * (1 / (N+1)) where N is the number of levels above the spell's requirement. So if you're one level above the fatigue cost is halved, 2 levels above its cut to a third, etc. etc. There is also some funky formula I don't know for when the opposite is true-- when a mage is 'casting' a spell they don't have the required path for it costs them some additional level of fatigue. This can only happen with communions, and is one of the many reasons communions are incredibly dangerous.

One gem can be used to increase a mage's paths for the purpose of meeting a spells requirements (So a 3F mage could burn a gem to cast a 4F spell), and more gems can be used for the sake of lowering fatigue cost. (AI supposedly attempts to lower fatigue cost to <= 50. So the AI will use 2 gems on a 100 fatigue spell if the mage has exactly the required level for it in order to reduce the cost to 50. But if the mage is over-leveled for the spell it'll already cost 50 or less so the game will only use the 1 gem that is the cost. I think. If even half of my understand if this is half right. )

Oh, and a final important note: a mage can only use a number of gems up to his level in the relevant path on a single spell.

Erm, all of the above was stuff I've been able to gather from checking around stuff online. Often from locations that are already second or third-hand accounts. I can't say I know anything about the AI's willingness to cast high fatigue spells when reducing the cost isn't an option. Nor do I know what happens. Would casting a 300 fatigue spell at full fatigue cost just flat out kill the caster? I'm guessing a dive through the shrapnel forums or the SA forums could probably come up with some posts on the subject, but I'm not in the mood for that tonight. I might look into it in a day or two. If I can work up the nerve to face the horrible corrupted land of the Shrapnel forums, or the equally daunting prospect of the goons. I invite any of you to dive in and report your findings as well. Alternatively we could start recording our own independent research on the subject.

[ThtblovesDF]

Sure, I'm doing some testing


Unit                        Order     
Sorcerer N2D1F1   - Swarm of Spiders - 1 gem in inventory (Spell cost: 1) - 0Gems used = Didn't cast.
Sorcerer N3D1F1   - Swarm of Spiders - 2 gems in inventory (Spell cost: 1) - 2 Gems used = Fatigue 35
Sorcerer N2D1F1E1  Swarm of Spiders - 2 gems in inventory (Spell cost: 1) - 2 Gems used = Fatigue 52
Sorcerer N1D1F1  Swarm of Spiders - 10 gems in inventory   (Spell cost: 1) - 1 Gem used = Fatigue 102   - didn't cast Swarm of Spiders (which needs N2D1 - instead used "Swarm" which is N1 and costs 100 fatigue) - casts it again when under 100 fati.
Black Soc F2 E3 D1 N1 - Curse of Stones -5 gems in inv (Spell cost: 3)  - 3 gems used ? Fatigue 200   - Curse of Stones has a fatigue cost of 300- the Caster only had 200 after using the normal cost of gems (3) - max limit of 200 fatigue on one cast?
Pretender N4D4 - Swarm of Spiders - 30 gems in inv - ()- 2 Gem used = Fatigue cost/cast 23 [107 Fatigue after 5 casts] - continued to cast at 23 cost whenever he could. - ended the fight with 9 gems total left, so 21 used. Maybe he changes casting to use more gems/cost less over 50 fatigue?


I can at least somewhat get them to do what I want, but after the first cast, all bets are off.

Edit:
Mage F4 - Will 'o'wisp (costs 1, fatigue 100-) - he used 3 out of 10 gems and suffered 24 fatigue damage - if they can waste gems, they will...
Mage F4  - Summon Fire Elemental - cost  1 - Fatigue 100 3 gems used and 34 fatigue damage       
Mage F4  - Summon Fire Elemental - cost  1 - Fatigue 100 4 gems used and 28 fatigue damage

So with this I can confirm - he will pay more gems if above 50 fatigue or so and try his best to stay under 100. - AI choose to pay 3 gems (instead of possible 4) while under 50 fatigue, but then used 4 while above it, for the same spell.


Various other notes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Spiders from Summon-Swarm are pretty worthless against normal chaff - there poison does no real damage(5-10 points of fatigue dmg), there bite is 1 dmg. You get 70, but 70 only manged to kill 2 basic barbarian soldiers - seeing how you need to nearly always use 2 gems to get them cast'd

Master of the Games is a beast in any kind of fair combat - except vs fire elementals which ruin his day

125 is the max defence value you can buy

Units set to patrol will defend the province attacked and NOT hide in the castle.

Argartha is really hard to fight, when it gets enouch resources to get a army up

[Karlito]

So there's something else, which is that there is a limit to the number of gems a Mage can use during battle. The limit is their level in a particular path (A N2 mage can only use 2 nature gems during a battle). This can be raised with items or booster spells cast during the battle.

You did discover one important fact:

if they can waste gems, they will...

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   Hello Agartha! Your birds where tasty and about as useful as I think you knew they would be though the spy desert was nice. Any particular reason for attacking me at this moment? Just so everyone knows maybe you can explain why what is probably the most powerful nation decided to attack one of the people who hasn't done anything to you or others? Maybe you can also explain why if you do manage to conquer me you won't basically be able to steam roll the rest of the world because of the gained wealth of gems and resources?

[Waterplouf]

well, I think there isn't really anything I can do at this stage. I have 2 provinces left with the capital being under siege and no more troops. The game was still very fun and I really enjoyed it  . I think I am going to turn AI, as I am pretty sure I have no chance to turn the game back in my favor.

[gman8181]

Hate to see you go, I don't even think we had any interaction with one another in this game.

On another note, I know deep down inside I should probably get into a war with someone to expand my territory but I really don't feel like being the aggressor.  I'm pretty confident in the forces I've built up but I'd just feel kind of guilty being the first to attack even though I know it's not really personal.  I guess for the time being I'll just keep blood hunting and building up my armies.  Can never get enough demons right?

[Bluerobin]

Agartha's got some nice tasty land, especially for blood hunting!

(disclaimer: lands may or may not actually be especially good for blood hunting.)