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[obolisk0430]

I'm here.  Sorry about not doing much.

[Edosurist]

@Phantom
Reasons:

Why the OMGUS?

From my experience, scum never OMGUS if they can help it. They've been taught not to do that, so I usually see it as a reckless-town tell.
This is also, from my experience, a tell scum try to push because it's a widely known tell, and it's easy to catch someone doing. Scum have a hard time making legit cases, so they appear to make a case while doing as little actual scumhunting as possible.
But this might not be site meta :|

Tiruin:

On that note, I'm a mason.

You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?

What the hell are you even doing.

Same reason I thought Norris was scummy, I just had a better gut feeling on him, probably because he had more posts for me to read through and get a feel for him.

Now that he flipped scum, I'll have to decide what this means for you.
Phanton of The Library for now.
@NQT

You seem to be against playstyle related questions. This is interesting because these seem to be the norm here. What kind of questions would you ask to get the ball rolling? I like in-character questions relating to the 'flavour' myself, but in my previous game here it was suggested that they're not effective either.

Questions should be formed to gain more information relevant to the current game. General questions about a person's theory on something provides no real information. It's just WIFOM fuel that scum could use for a multitude of reasons.
"What did you gain/learn from doing that?" would be a relevant question.
But as opposed to starting with questions, I prefer starting with accusations. People are, in fact, not to be trusted until proven innocent.
If someone created a fairly large chunk of text defending someone's RVS vote on page 1, that could warrant a vote for an overreaction.
Another example of an accusation would be:

"NQT (blue is the informal FOS color, right?) failed to consider that, while it might be pro-town to "confirm" players, it is anti-town to do scum's thought processing for them, and warrants a warning. At worst, he's scum trying to communicate to his last buddy. How could you miss this if you are 'a logician by trade so my instinct is to consider all options that are logically possible'?"
And that was real, so you might want to address that.

One of Imiknorris, Deathsword, and  Nerjin is scum for the quick wagon on NQT.

If Deathsword flips scum, I will lmfao.

Side note @ZU: Why don't you like the horizontal lines? If there's any real world application to DF, shouldn't it be to make beauty out of chaos and destruction, i.e., the UI of anything Bay12 related? 

[Edosurist]

If Deathsword and NQT both flip scum, I will sig this.
I will sig this and show it to all my friends.
Then laugh at the audacity of the scumteam.

[Tiruin]

ZU

zombie urist

@ZU//UI//PoTL: Can you give me your reads on what you got from that one-liner on me and Ford?

So what's up about it being Odd? And because of my odd-vote, you shifted, I see?

I found it suspicious and thus voted accordingly.

So...now? What is it to you? Since when did your suspicion shift?

Ford
Is your logical system of tracking scum based on their vote pattern? It really looks muchly like it, as it seems you keep on pointing back onto the patterns in relation to those who've flipped scum.

Everyone
What does Nerjin's death convey?

They either doxxed a townie or they doxxed themself to be out of the game. Either way they didn't leave a 'bah' message. As Nerjin's an active player and they run the BM let's assume the former.

Well who could Nerjin have targeted being so sure that the target was a mason? My guess: Captain Ford. Nerjin know's Ford's playstyle from the insider position of running a BM with Ford as a prominent player. Maybe Nerjin's read on Ford is that Ford likes to doublebluff, and when they saw Ford claim to be Mason, Nerjin took that to be a doublebluff and sent in the kill request. What do we all think?

I'd like to think I had something to do with it, but until the game's over, I won't know for sure. I really don't think it was me. But that's my opinion.

I was pretty sure you're town, but you sure are stirring up a hornet's nest. This was a really dumb thing to post, and Toaster nailed the reason why. I know you were trying to get all the information you could off of Nerjin, but this isn't information that should be discussed publicly. Figuring out publicly who Nerjin targeted is actually bad for the town. Better to keep the scum guessing.

So knock it off. 

As this seems like a metatell to me, other then you saying you're pretty sure. Seeing your past posts, you're seeing it from attitude derived from the BM...

Lastly, I'm curious about your read on DS.

Zombie Urist:

Captain Ford: What is your read on NQT?

I think I handled that.

Huuuh? You think DS's argument is bad but you see his point of view? This section is filled with contradictions.

It is not a contradiction in the least. Seeing someone's point of view doesn't mean I agree with it.

I think his argument is bad, but I don't think he thinks it's bad. I think he honestly believes he has something, and while I think he's wrong, I don't think he's malicious.

Ok, you see it from his probable viewpoint - that nobody would state what they think is utter trash and believes that it is reasonable, but...how did it shift from getting your vote, into the non-malevolent area? As in, the motives behind it?



PPE: Edosurist.

@Phantom
Reasons:

Why the OMGUS?

From my experience, scum never OMGUS if they can help it. They've been taught not to do that, so I usually see it as a reckless-town tell.
This is also, from my experience, a tell scum try to push because it's a widely known tell, and it's easy to catch someone doing. Scum have a hard time making legit cases, so they appear to make a case while doing as little actual scumhunting as possible.
But this might not be site meta :|

Tiruin:

On that note, I'm a mason.

You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?

What the hell are you even doing.

Same reason I thought Norris was scummy, I just had a better gut feeling on him, probably because he had more posts for me to read through and get a feel for him.

Now that he flipped scum, I'll have to decide what this means for you.
Phanton of The Library for now.

Whu-?

I...really don't get what you're trying to put out. You point out a quizzical post on my one-liner, and put some fallible information about an OMGUS (Generalizing.)

So...I can't follow how this ended up in you voting PoTL.

"NQT (blue is the informal FOS color, right?) failed to consider that, while it might be pro-town to "confirm" players, it is anti-town to do scum's thought processing for them, and warrants a warning. At worst, he's scum trying to communicate to his last buddy. How could you miss this if you are 'a logician by trade so my instinct is to consider all options that are logically possible'?"
And that was real, so you might want to address that.

I believe he was stating ideas from an omniscient guess-point. Why PoTL over NQT? - it seems your point of suspicion is more clarified in the latter.

((Read up the BM to see which colors to use. Yes, blue = FoS, red = Vote))

[Tiruin]

EBWOP:

Hey obolisk!

What are your reads on everyone, and what is your take on the current events?

Why weren't you doing much? And who is your top suspect along with reasons why?

[Edosurist]

@Tiruin
O.o
I'm an idiot.
I misunderstood what Norris was saying in that quote. He wasn't questioning what YOU did, he was questioning what Ford did... by ambiguously quoting your post.
That's why I thought Norris was scummy.
When PoTL quoted that, saying nothing, I thought he echoed Norris's thoughts.

I guess that nullifies any claims I had at calling him out as scum.


As for the OMGUS statement, I thought that was the more substantial part of my case. I have never witnessed or read a recent game in which that tell correctly identifies maf. I've only seen it as gooftown.
When PotL used this tell, it made him appear as if he was doing scumhunting. In reality, it's one of the simplest and basic tells that exists. Scum find it difficult to make in depth cases, so the OMGUS tell is easy for them to use.
I don't see how this is fallible. I've seen this reverse OMGUS tell I'm using correctly find scum, or lazy/anti-town players, on multiple occasions on different mediums of play.

Also, *possible chainsaw defense noted.*

[zombie urist]

Tiruin: Since you've explained your initial position, meh. NQT and Ford are scummier.
Edosurist: I didn't say I don't like horizontal lines, I don't like many line breaks.
Like.

This.

Takes up too much space.
Captain Ford: Currently, who are your top scum-picks?

[Dariush]

It's going to be hilarious if the entire scumteam just kinda murders itself.

Ford:

Dariush:

You haven't explained why you've done it.

I have explained quite thoroughly WHY I did it. You clearly don't understand my explanation and don't want to. There is really nothing I can do about that.

Nope, you didn't. The best thing you did was give a pointlessly elaborate and obvious explanation of who must prefer to be seen as who by whom and that was it. There is no positive to town reason to claim mason.

Therefore, you knowingly did something that has the possibility to hurt town without any benefit to it whatsoever.

Not true. Explaining my position and outlook helps town to make a better judgment about me. Also, the argument about avoiding paying attention to claims is worthwhile information that could benefit the town, since it isn't necessarily obvious.

Your outlook is 'willing to fakeclaim for no reason whatsoever' and your position is 'scum'. Got it.

My argument said that making the claim doesn't hurt anyone. Paying attention to it is what causes harm.

Are you really this stupid? For some reason in P22's deadchat you seemed kinda saner. You are the one who made the claim, for no reason whatsoever. I am the one who pays attention to it because only scum would claim so. If, in your own words, I am somehow causing harm by paying attention to your claim, you shouldn't have claimed so I wouldn't pay attention to it, because there's absolutely no benefit to the town from it.

Obolisk, drag your ass in here. What was the point of letting you in despite you not having a single BM completed if you aren't going to play?

ZU, hey look, there's another noncommital random question to the Bandwagon Target Of The Day! Do you actually suspect NQT or do you just want to get on the bandwagon without having to state your actual (absent) reasons for it (again)?

Tolyk:

Not much time to reread everything, but why's everyone suddenly "NQT"? Just don't really want to dig through all of that... >.>

Did you really just tell us you don't want to read the actual game you are actually playing? Please tell me that you were mistaken and you meant some pile of literal shit instead. Please.

[obolisk0430]

I'he reread the entire thread.  I'm not sure what the scum team is.  However, Deathsword is on it.  His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting.  Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.

[zombie urist]

pfp you mean mk a town? j want a beyter post.

[obolisk0430]

Unfortunately, I am also pfp.
Deathsword didn't act like someone who had found a scumslip.   He acted like scum trying to get a mislynch.  I can't elaborate well on a phone.

[notquitethere]

ZU, Toaster and Captain Ford - on Why We Shouldn't Discuss the Actions of Confirmed Scum

Figuring out publicly who Nerjin targeted is actually bad for the town. Better to keep the scum guessing

That's not logic at all thats WIFOM. Also, other people never act perfectly logically.

Either way, I don't really see why anyone would try to kill Captain Ford, as he is super scummy.

Okay, but I don't see anyone else putting forward a credible alternative. Look, it seems to me that the easiest way to hunt scum is to rule out who probably isn't scum. By working out who Nerjin and Norris might have rebounded off, we can get somewhere towards not lynching innocent players.

Or at least, that's what I thought was a good tactic. A lot of you seem to think that that way of scum-hunting is itself scummy. I've read your arguments, and I can certainly see the dangers of giving the scum too much information, and I'm willing to pursue other methods of investigation.

Edos

Questions should be formed to gain more information relevant to the current game. General questions about a person's theory on something provides no real information. It's just WIFOM fuel that scum could use for a multitude of reasons.
"What did you gain/learn from doing that?" would be a relevant question.
But as opposed to starting with questions, I prefer starting with accusations. People are, in fact, not to be trusted until proven innocent.
If someone created a fairly large chunk of text defending someone's RVS vote on page 1, that could warrant a vote for an overreaction.

Okay, I get how accusations and responses to accusations might be more telling, but you can't simultaneously accuse everyone, while you can ask everyone playstyle questions.

"NQT failed to consider that, while it might be pro-town to "confirm" players, it is anti-town to do scum's thought processing for them, and warrants a warning. At worst, he's scum trying to communicate to his last buddy. How could you miss this if you are 'a logician by trade so my instinct is to consider all options that are logically possible'?"
And that was real, so you might want to address that.

Just because I'm a logician (well, I've got a postgrad in philosophy with a large logic component) doesn't mean I see every possibility, more that I try to take every possibility that I have seen into account. I realise now, as discussed above, that what I took to be the most effective route forward in scumhunting at that juncture could be mistaken for scummy behaviour. My earnest attempt at getting everyone to engage in a scumhunting conversation obviously backfired.

Tolyk:

Not much time to reread everything, but why's everyone suddenly "NQT"? Just don't really want to dig through all of that... >.>

See above. The tl:dr is I was trying to broach a conversation on who Nerjin and Norris' targets were, thinking that might be a good way of whittling down the scum from the townies. Apparently, that way of scum hunting looks scummy. What's your view?

Dariush

It's going to be hilarious if the entire scumteam just kinda murders itself.

Would certainly save us some work. Though we still have to be vigilant, as there's a much greater chance of mislynches from here on in. Question: are you always so aggressive in your posts, Dariush? Or am I misreading your tone?

Obo
I don't know what other people's view is on you but you're going to have to lurk a little less if we're going to trust you. I agree with you on Death Sword, but then bussing isn't unknown.

Phantom
We haven't heard from you since Norris' death. What are you thinking? I know the game can be pretty fast paced at times but lurking or appearing to lurk doesn't do you any favours.

Tiruin
I agree that Edos' vote for Phantom looked odd: are you happy with his explanations? (I assume it's a 'he': please anyone do correct me on preferred pronouns). He still hasn't unvoted, that I can see.


I think a lot of the votes against me are bandwagoning- but that's just my initial interpretation and I don't want to jump to any conclusions that would lead to a mislynch: you can't all be scum so I must legitimately have seemed malignant, and so I'm sorry for less than optimal town-play.

Given that Death Sword voted alongside two confirmed scum for my quick lynch, I think he looks most scummiest at this juncture, but I'm open to other suggestions/arguments.

[Teneb]

I am here, so let's get to it.


Obolisk, you've been lurking for the entire game, so one small pfp post isn't going to be enough. Since you already said your read on me, give us your read on everyone else.


Ford

Which leads me to the question, why are you going to such an effort to protect him?

Shouldn't I try to protect any townie from scum?

How can you bee so sure of his alignment?

...but there's something else, too...

After you made your case, Nerjin popped in to support you with this gem:

NQT I have a question for you. Why so interested in scum advice?

So NQT's been voted by scum, and you've been linked to scum by a common target. Sure, it's possible Nerjin was buddying you and voting for an ally. But those things just aren't that common.

That link alone might be a good enough reason for you to hang. But I want to hear what others think about it, first.

And there is absolutely no chance of Nerjin being oportunistic scum trying to ride on my case?


NQT

Everyone
What does Nerjin's death convey?

They either doxxed a townie or they doxxed themself to be out of the game. Either way they didn't leave a 'bah' message. As Nerjin's an active player and they run the BM let's assume the former.

Well who could Nerjin have targeted being so sure that the target was a mason? My guess: Captain Ford. Nerjin know's Ford's playstyle from the insider position of running a BM with Ford as a prominent player. Maybe Nerjin's read on Ford is that Ford likes to doublebluff, and when they saw Ford claim to be Mason, Nerjin took that to be a doublebluff and sent in the kill request. What do we all think?

I'm late to this, but I feel like I should repeat it: This is WIFOM. And it is often scummy.


Now, Captain Ford, tell me something

Tiruin:

On that note, I'm a mason.

You're town, aren't you, Captain Ford?

Aren't we all?

Still makes no sense why he'd joke around as a Townie.

Yeah, I can see you still don't get it.

fa·ce·tious
Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.

I didn't choose that word arbitrarily to describe it. It was deliberately and blatantly inappropriate. But I was also making a point when I said.

It was not "just a joke". It was not a serious claim, but I was making a serious point.

Here you claim your "I am a mason" wasn't a joke. Which you repeated quite a bit. Instead you claim you were making a serious point. Tell me, what point would that be.

Now, you may be wondering why I voted you, and not NQT. That's because I realized something. See, I had never played a game with NQT before, or read the ongoing BM. So when NQT started acting friendly (something rare in a mafia game) towards me (and others), I mistook it for a buddying attempt, rather than what it truly was: he was, quite simply, an eager new player that wanted to play what he thought to be a good game. Then, I attacked him and started building a case on him, while he tried to defend himself. Then came you. The heroic Captain Ford, completely sure of NQT's alignment and personality, ready to defend him from the evil Deathsword.

Of course you know NQT isn't scum. That is because you are, and you know your team. You saw my attacks on NQT as an opportunity. An opportunity to turn my own arguments against me and drive a lynch on me. It was actually a good plan, I'll admit. Not only that, but by defending NQT, you gain his trust, further encouraging him to support my lynch. Then comes lazy lurker obolisk, and instead of giving reads on players or at least trying to find evidence, merely parrots what others have said. I guess had I kept on believing that NQT was the real danger you would have voted me and tried to drive a lynch on me, maybe even attempt to convice enough people to hammer.

Time to die, Captain Scum.


Also, it's Deathsword. Not Death Sword, not Deaths Word. I understand some poeple like to play with the names a bit, but I ask that you refer to me as either Deathsword or DS. It might be a bit of OCD on my part, but it simply strikes me as wrong to type my name in any other way.

[Tiruin]

Given that Death Sword voted alongside two confirmed scum for my quick lynch, I think he looks most scummiest at this juncture, but I'm open to other suggestions/arguments.

How does this make sense...DS, I believe, is not scum in that manner.

Most scummiest because "Hey, bro. You voted against me. Now them two scumbags are dead by the cops, so you're scum too, mm'kay?"

For one who claims an analytical outlook, I don't see how you're defending this vote correctly.

LEAFSNAIL: VOTECOUNT.

I'he reread the entire thread.  I'm not sure what the scum team is.  However, Deathsword is on it.  His reaction to the apparent buddying day one looks more like paniced distancing than legitimate scum hunting.  Also, he just did the exact same thing the last two scum did before they tried to mk a mason.

Ahahaha. No.

You're stating without quoting. You want to save your buddy's hides by going after DS with that kind of reasoning?

If: Apparent Buddying; Then: Proof.

[Leafsnail]

Votecount (6 votes to lynch):
Dariush:
Tiruin:
Phantom of The Library: Edosurist (1)
Captain Ford: Dariush, Deathsword (2)
TolyK:
Edosurist: Tiruin (1)
Deathsword: notquitethere, obolisk0430 (2)
notquitethere: zombie urist, Toaster (2)
zombie urist:
Toaster:
obolisk0430:

Not voting: Phantom of The Library, Captain Ford, TolyK (3)