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[Eagle_eye]

If it isn't governed by reason, it isn't part of the universe, and thus isn't relevant to anyone in it.

More importantly, however, you're dangerously certain that you're right. What are the consequences of assuming AI have souls when they don't? Mild inconvenience. What are the consequences of assuming they're not sentient when they are? Mass slavery and murder. You can never have any real evidence either way. Far, far better to go with the option with less potential to cause damage.

[Xantalos]

I think what thecard is saying is that since God is omnipotent, we can't figure out how he works because 'fuck you I'm God'.

[alway]

Al, you seem to be confusing what I said with your predetermined definition.  I never said the soul was anywhere in your body, nor did I say that it controls anything you do.  It just is.

That I could agree with, if it were just that.

However, and here is where the real issue I am arguing comes in, you would not be typing these messages if you did not have faith. Typing; same goes for speaking; they are physical actions. Muscles controlled by the brain, a physical system controlling a physical system. To claim that faith is part of an immaterial soul is to simultaneously imply that this immaterial soul influences the physical system of your brain and muscles; if this were not the case, you would be unable to claim that faith is part of an immaterial soul, as your physical brain and body would be unaware and disconnected from that immaterial soul from which the faith in the immaterial soul is claimed to come from.

The claim itself is carried out through physical means; in this case, typing it on a computer. This by necessity requires the soul, from whose faith the argument originates, to either itself be physical or in some way interface with the physical systems you used to type the claim on your computer. Without the faith originating in your physical brain, your physical brain and fingers would otherwise be unaware of your own faith; and as such, no claim of having them based in faith could be made.

[Xantalos]

Unfortunately, these two systems cannot coexist.
Nipotent: 'X because of Y, therefore Z.'
Omnipotent: 'Fuck the rules, I make them.'

[Criptfeind]

Not getting my whore bots and super pizza drones is a bit more then 'Mild inconvenience' Eagle eye.

More seriously though, something is a bit worrying to me when these conversations come up. I occasionally hear transhumanists saying they want to copy their mind endlessly in von numan bot and spread them across the galaxy. Does that sound like a mechanical version of the zerg to anyone else? I don't have a issue with transferring my mind or anything, but having unlimited copies seems like a really dangerous thing, both to myself and to other life. I mean, resources are not infinite, and you are not really benefiting yourself from doing this sorta thing are you? It just sounds greedy and stupid to me.

If we could copy our minds, do you guys think we should have a limit (maybe even just one) as the max of a real copy?

[King DZA]

The only way I'd ever consider becoming a cyborg is if I was the only one (or at the very least a member of a very, very small group of people) with access to such technology, as that is the only way it would be cool enough to make it worth it for me. Being a technologically enhanced human being is lame if everyone else gets to be just as technologically enhanced as you...

Wouldn’t it be worse to be the only human being that isn’t technologically advanced?

Hell naw, that would mean you get to take the Last Pure Human route; dwelling silently within the shadows of a cyborg-ruled world, doing your best to keep alive the revered "old ways" of humanity as you are forced to push the limits of what your organic body is capable of and slowly perfect your innately inferior abilities in order to survive.

In fact, being the only pure human in a world of cyborgs is arguably even cooler than being the only cyborg in a world of normal humans.

[Thecard]

I think what thecard is saying is that since God is omnipotent, we can't figure out how he works because 'fuck you I'm God'.

Actually... you summed that up perfectly.  He's fucking God.

And by the way, that was a reason I used gravity.  It's not actually proven, but you are sure that if you drop a ball from you hand it will hit the ground.  We aren't entirely sure why, but we know it happens.

And I can say you aren't free thinkers because there is no such thing.  You are assuming I am wrong, and that is because you think differently than I do.  You can't have a neutral thought, you are always going to pick a side.  So no, you're not neutral.

Ninja'd?  I swear, this day....

Al, my soul is not my faith, nor is it where my faith stems from.  The soul is more of a passive thing.  We all have one.  But my soul is not what is making me type this out, or what makes me speak about religion.  You have a soul too.  You just do.  You're human, you have a soul.  That does not affect whether or not you are Christian.
What makes me type is my faith.  My faith is what separates me from you.  My faith is given to me by God, and it is a thought, or a belief.  I never said my actions were dictated by my soul.

Ninja'd again?  What the hell?  I... whatever.

Xantalos, you are correct again.  Someone really ought to get you a new car!

Again?  Ninja'd?  I don't... even...

[Xantalos]

Hehehe.
Also, it is possible to not pick a side by not participating in the debate.

[Criptfeind]

The only way I'd ever consider becoming a cyborg is if I was the only one (or at the very least a member of a very, very small group of people) with access to such technology, as that is the only way it would be cool enough to make it worth it for me. Being a technologically enhanced human being is lame if everyone else gets to be just as technologically enhanced as you...

Wouldn’t it be worse to be the only human being that isn’t technologically advanced?

Hell naw, that would mean you get to take Last Pure Human route; dwelling silently within the shadows of a cyborg-ruled world, doing your best to keep alive the revered "old ways" of humanity as you are forced to push the limits of what your organic body is capable of and slowly perfect your innately inferior abilities in order to survive.

In fact, being the only pure human in a world of cyborgs is arguably even cooler than being the only cyborg in a world of normal humans.

And then you die at roughly 1/1000000000000000000 of the normal human lifespan.

[Thecard]

Hehehe.
Also, it is possible to not pick a side by not participating in the debate.

Sonofabitch, I'm serious about that car.  But that would mean you literally have no idea either way.

[Xantalos]

Hehehe.
Also, it is possible to not pick a side by not participating in the debate.

Sonofabitch, I'm serious about that car.  But that would mean you literally have no idea either way.

I figure that I'll figure it all out when I'm dead. That'll probably backfire on me, but eh.

[King DZA]

The only way I'd ever consider becoming a cyborg is if I was the only one (or at the very least a member of a very, very small group of people) with access to such technology, as that is the only way it would be cool enough to make it worth it for me. Being a technologically enhanced human being is lame if everyone else gets to be just as technologically enhanced as you...

Wouldn’t it be worse to be the only human being that isn’t technologically advanced?

Hell naw, that would mean you get to take Last Pure Human route; dwelling silently within the shadows of a cyborg-ruled world, doing your best to keep alive the revered "old ways" of humanity as you are forced to push the limits of what your organic body is capable of and slowly perfect your innately inferior abilities in order to survive.

In fact, being the only pure human in a world of cyborgs is arguably even cooler than being the only cyborg in a world of normal humans.

And then you die at roughly 1/1000000000000000000 of the normal human lifespan.

And you do it as one badass, 100% organic motherfucker.

Though ideally, you'll (by some miraculous odds) find another pure human of the opposite sex before that happens, and thus be able to bring forth a child or two to continue carrying on the legacy.

[Fenrir]

And by the way, that was a reason I used gravity.  It's not actually proven, but you are sure that if you drop a ball from you hand it will hit the ground.  We aren't entirely sure why, but we know it happens.

So you are telling me that deciding to just believe something for no reason is just as good as any other method for understanding the world? I can’t imagine what else you would be trying to illustrate with this example.

And I can say you aren't free thinkers because there is no such thing.  You are assuming I am wrong, and that is because you think differently than I do.  You can't have a neutral thought, you are always going to pick a side.  So no, you're not neutral.

I never said anything about neutrality or the free thought, so...

[alway]

Anywho; dropping the previous conversation, as it seems we are both about out of things to say on the matter and it was getting to be a bit of a long tangent...

Not getting my whore bots and super pizza drones is a bit more then 'Mild inconvenience' Eagle eye.

No need to worry! The first is already sorta here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxxxy

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Not getting my whore bots and super pizza drones is a bit more then 'Mild inconvenience' Eagle eye.

More seriously though, something is a bit worrying to me when these conversations come up. I occasionally hear transhumanists saying they want to copy their mind endlessly in von numan bot and spread them across the galaxy. Does that sound like a mechanical version of the zerg to anyone else? I don't have a issue with transferring my mind or anything, but having unlimited copies seems like a really dangerous thing, both to myself and to other life. I mean, resources are not infinite, and you are not really benefiting yourself from doing this sorta thing are you? It just sounds greedy and stupid to me.

There are massive, massive problems with building a working Von Neumann Machine. Even the smallest ones would fail pretty quickly, and ones complex enough to hold a human mind would barely get off the ground. Otherwise we'd have some already. Anyway, when I hear people talking about wanting to Von Neumann themselves, I think they're probably just enjoying the mental exercise rather than expressing a legitimate desire.

If we could copy our minds, do you guys think we should have a limit (maybe even just one) as the max of a real copy?

I don't think that's going to work out. You could manage it in the early days, but there will eventually come a point where fighting mind copying is about as effective as fighting file copying: not.