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[Solifuge]

I don't do nice things for others because I expect the universe to repay me in kind though some underlying cosmic balance. I know that every good thing I do for anyone else makes things better for them, thus improving their ability to make a positive impact on the world, and thus helping me and the things I have a stake in. Also, I hope to encourage an attitude of helpfulness and reciprocation in those around me, and help them out when I can, in hopes that they'll do the same for me when I need it. Thus, being a nice guy.

My beef with this is there are situations where you really can't expect your gesture to result in future Good Stuff, so your justification for being nice (they'll pass it on) doesn't apply. Not too many situations in real life where this is the case (most I can think of involve comforting someone as they die), but throw in human flaws like selfishness and the situations where people are just unlikely to pass it on are that much easier to rationalize away being nice and instead be a dick out of convenience.

I get what you're saying... I suppose it's a bit strange that I'd comfort a dying person, despite the knowledge that it might not mean much to the world for very long. It's sort of a murky territory of my personality which I don't really understand well myself. I think, in part, I'd want to be there because I feel it's important that someone be with them during their last moments, lest they disappear into obscurity. Every individual acts as part of a whole... and I think, in part, I'd like to be a part of the legacy that followed them.

Also, I don't really know what happens when one dies... and just because I suspect its either non-existence or a form of existence I can't conceptualize, doesn't mean I should treat them any differently when they're departing than I would in life.

[Hiiri]

I get what you're saying... I suppose it's a bit strange that I'd comfort a dying person, despite the knowledge that it might not mean much to the world for very long. It's sort of a murky territory of my personality which I don't really understand well myself. I think, in part, I'd want to be there because I feel it's important that someone be with them during their last moments, lest they disappear into obscurity. Every individual acts as part of a whole... and I think, in part, I'd like to be a part of the legacy that followed them.

Your logic still applies. You're there because you might wish someone's there for you when you're dying.

[GlyphGryph]

It's definitely not true for me. I actually tend to go out of my way to avoid recognition for my good deeds - it's enough to know there was a good outcome, and that seems dirtied if it ends up saddled with overlaying obligations.

But I still think you're in the clear - your general "I expect them to do nice things" instead of "I expect them to owe me a specific nice thing and they'd better do it" seems a reasonable enough improvement.

Maybe I should start expecting things in return, but I dunno - it just seems a bit contrary to my nature. If I want something in return, I'm engaging in a transaction, not a kindness.

[EnigmaticHat]

Bah, anti-morality sounds better than rebellion

Personally, I do nice things because I feel sympathy, so making other people happier makes me happier, and seeing other people sad makes me sad.  Its a little more complicated than that (I've been trained to act a certain way, and I also have the value judgement that helping others is good), but sympathy is the main reason.  If I didn't have that, I probably wouldn't act nice very often.

[Vector]

Your logic still applies. You're there because you might wish someone's there for you when you're dying.

That's empathy, though, not "I will behave this way and then I might be more likely to get what I want."

[SalmonGod]

Your logic still applies. You're there because you might wish someone's there for you when you're dying.

That's empathy, though, not "I will behave this way and then I might be more likely to get what I want."

If only empathy were society's guiding principle, instead of whatever bullshit we've somehow ended up with.

[Hiiri]

That's empathy, though, not "I will behave this way and then I might be more likely to get what I want."

I do think that's what he was aiming for with "cosmic balance". Doing his share of good deeds, making the world a better place for him to live in.

Comforting an old man might not benefit you. One person can only do so little. But if you have million people comforting old men, each only doing their small share, it might pay off in the end.

Donating blood is the same thing. You donate blood, because you might someday need it yourself.

(Or maybe I'm just projecting.)

[Leafsnail]

"Be the change you want to see in the world".  Or "Be the status quo you want to see in the world" if it's something people already do like give blood.

[King DZA]

I personally have the fucking curse wonderful gift of having an exceptional level of empathy for nearly all forms of life, while simultaneously being disgusted and pissed off at every living creature whenever I'm outside my meditative state of not-giving-a-fuck. This conundrum regularly forces me to ask myself the question, "If I despise them all with such a furious, unceasing passion, why do I care for them so much?"

Oh, the hours of contemplation such inquiries have lead to...

[Frumple]

... sometimes it's just to make the world a better place. Most of the stuff I'm aiming to accomplish on a wider scale than just personal (I hope to teach, some years down the line), I don't expect to pay off until I'm long, long dead. If I were to try to put it in... not quite clear, but somewhat closer to the intent, language, I'd say that there can be a personal incentive in improving the world's aesthetics; not to make the world a better place for yourself, but instead to simply make it one that's more attractive to your sensibilities, even if doing so gives you, personally, no direct or indirect gain. To do good for the sake of doing good, et al.

On the personal scale, most good acts I do, I do because they make the world more... attractive, y'ken? Painting by the dance steps instead of the brush. The world is only an ugly place if we make it so.

The rest are optimization, usually. 90+% of the time, "Nice" acts just pay off with less investment. Being mean usually takes too much effort for too little reward and too many burnt bridges

[Pnx]

You know, personally, I find being nice is better if you don't think about it too much.

[kaijyuu]

Eh, I'd vastly prefer people think about their morality/etc rather than go by gut feeling. Gut feeling is the base you build logically from, not the whole shebang.

[Pnx]

Eh, usually I'd wholeheartedly agree with you, I hate it when people refuse to think about or question things, but in this particular case I think you'll be a lot happier if you avoid thinking about it too much. It's one of those things it's better to just do rather than over think.

[Itnetlolor]

Sorta burned out from working, so I didn't really catch up much on this topic (or keeping up with it for that matter).

Nice is good in moderation. I mean, not that I condone it too much, but it's good to spoil oneself every once in awhile (meaning loosen up on the morality front, and have fun getting wasted once in awhile, or be a little more adventurous on the dating front and etc.). Sometimes, just to feel human, and not like a tool, it doesn't hurt to be an ass(hole) every once in awhile. How I see it, or more how I prefer to go by it, if you want to be a jackass for any reason, take responsibility for your actions one way or another.

If you're messing around with someone, and it may come off as a form of bullying to them, or third parties, let the victim in on it, at least; or buy them a beer to make up for it. I mean, as long as you let them know you were trying to have fun with them, and wanted them to lighten up (especially if they were already miserable when you were doing so), then you get the best of both worlds; you are an asshole for a moment, and you're doing good by taking responsibility for it. Make it a habit (being more assholeish), however, or don't take complete responsibility, and it'll border on the notion of "Someone who is nice to you, but not the waiter, is not a nice person.".

That's my thoughts on the moderation of the Nice Guy:Asshole ratio. Keep it balanced enough to be human, but a good person while at it, but also enough to have fun as well at someone else's expense. I guess a good way to work with it is be child-like in your manners, but be an adult about it as well.

[Solifuge]

Eh, usually I'd wholeheartedly agree with you, I hate it when people refuse to think about or question things, but in this particular case I think you'll be a lot happier if you avoid thinking about it too much. It's one of those things it's better to just do rather than over think.

I try to be conscious of everything I can in my life. Yeah, I enjoy being nice on a simple, emotional level too... probably some reward system wired into the mental circuitry of social creatures like us, that makes us feel good for having the approval of a community. But still, "The unexamined life is not worth living," and all that. If I don't consider the value or purpose of things, even things that appear to be plainly positive things like doing a kindness for someone else, how can I be sure that I'm living well, doing the good I believe I'm doing, or otherwise making the best of what might be my one shot at life?

Anyway, I sense a tangent coming on. I think I'm going to sit back and lurk for a bit. >_<;