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[Vector]

I don't feel insulted, particularly, but what I'm trying to say is that there's a difference between women's public and private faces.  Women act more submissive than men do--in public.  Who they really are, beneath this performance of gender, is often very, very different.  Underneath the behaviors of dominance, do you really think that most men want to be stuck paying for stuff and telling other people what to do?

[Zrk2]

2. It's because (IMHO) "nice" guys aren't nice. They're just "beta." they don't project confidence, they don't seem "manly." However they're "nice." Of course for them "nice" means basically being walked all over by their partner. While they think this is what women want (AFAIK) it isn't. They want a man who is nice to them, but they also want a man who will take charge because the lingering gender roles in our society dictate that men should do that. These "nice" guys don't do that because they don't want to seem overbearing. But that is what women want; a man who can lead but not make them feel completely helpless, just protected. The "nice" guys project a lack of confidence and thus appear to be the antithesis of what a woman wants.

Of course I could be completely wrong. I'm not exactly experienced in this area.

The problem with that view Zrk is you're generalizing. You're right about some women. Not all. There are women that like "weak" or "feminine" men. And for a "weak" or "feminine" man, those are the type of women he should be pursing, not trying to change himself to fit what some other theoretical stereotypical woman wants.

Quote marks are around those words since I'm referring to colloquial stereotypes, not literal definitions of those words.

I find that with incredibly broad topics like this specifics are impossible, so generalizations are the only way to approach it. I'm sure there are exceptions to the previous sentence as well.

Kai : Yes, he is generalising - but I think what he's saying is right in most cases.

Exactly.

[kaijyuu]

@Vector
Yeah I'll agree with that (though personally I've been trying to merge my public and private face recently). I'll point out though that the "public face" is inherently a social construct people use to try and look more acceptable. It's not who they "really" are; it's a mask.

* kaijyuu has quite a rant about such masks but that's offtopic.

[Korbac]

This is sort of my point - the 'expectation' is to be submissive, although the reality may be far from different. As Kai has just said when writing this, the mask is what you see first.

I think I'll wait to hear from some other people to see if they accidentally elucidate my thoughts in a well - written manner.

Again, apologies if anyone feels I am 'boxing' them - when I say most it might be quite unlikely I'm referring to anyone who frequents an ASCII Freeware Game About Dunking Dwarves In Magma Forum.

[Zrk2]

Yeah I'll agree with that (though personally I've been trying to merge my public and private face recently). I'll point out though that the "public face" is inherently a social construct people use to try and look more acceptable. It's not who they "really" are; it's a mask.

* kaijyuu has quite a rant about such masks but that's offtopic.

This could require a new topic. I'm sure a Kaijyuu rant about this would be most enlightening.

"Give a man a mask and he will show you his face." -Oscar Wilde

[Frumple]

Keyed by this:

Okay, fine. I guess I'm back where I started then.

The following applies to the general discussion so far, though.

Possibly the worser part of the yin/yang thing presented is that from what I've seen mentioned in here, so far, it's been pretty much completely ignoring the fact that the concept system in question thoroughly asserts that everyone is thoroughly mixed in terms of their yin/yang balance, and having an excess of either (Such as a highly or entirely yang focused male) makes you an unbalanced (which is a negative thing) individual, and that the most optimal or desired mix of energies isn't actually that different between the physical sexes in any fundamental way. Seeking to be strongly aligned with either side is generally seen as either undesirable or somewhat strongly unusual.

From what I understand of th'philosophy, such as it is, it's not quite so one-dimensional as Trollestia's been presenting. It definitely has some issues when it interacts with western viewpoints, though, as they tend to have strong negative connotations in regard to yin energy that is either much weaker or outright nonexistent in the actual concept system. A yin male isn't a bad thing, nor is a yang female; at most they're slightly unusual. E: Got one of the terms reversed. Damned western linguistic bias making me have trouble remembering yang is male

Though that's within the systems themselves, mind. I'd still happily say that assigning gender leaning to either side is basically bullshit, mostly because of the whole "gender is a cultural construct" thing. At most, particular culture's gender roles would have yin or yang leanings, but the physiological aspects just don't really have enough influence to necessitate a strong yang or yin presence across individuals.

[kaijyuu]

"Give a man a mask and he will show you his face." -Oscar Wilde

Yup!

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

[LordBucket]

what I've seen mentioned in here, so far, it's been pretty much completely ignoring the fact that the concept system in
question thoroughly asserts that everyone is thoroughly mixed in terms of their yin/yang balance, and having an excess of either

Oh, really? Because going back over a few of my posts, I think I said that pretty clearly a couple times. For example...

In this post::
 -- "It is simply more complicated with human beings because "biological male or female" does not precisely correspond to "100% yin or yang." As human beings, we have a mixed nature, and the ability to choose."

And this post:
 -- "It is a mistake to assume that "man = 100% masculine and woman = 100% feminine.""

In fact, even if you go back to my very first post in the thread, I clearly acknowledge that people of one gender can play opposite gender roles, acknowledge that human beings are more complicated than the basic model I provide, used language to distinguish between people and energies, and qualified statements about women with whether they identified with those energies:
 -- "Human beings are more complex than this, but the basic masculine and feminine energy relationship still applies. When a "biological male human being" attempts to relate to a "biological female human being" by being nice, and seeking permission, and idolizing her...he's not acting in harmony with the basic Yin Yang energy relationship. When he wait for her to initiate sex, when he gives her control of the relationship...he's playing the feminine role. If she identifies with feminine energy, and is seeking masculine energy...it's not a natural response for her to respond to feminine energy with feminine energy."

it's not quite so one-dimensional as Trollestia's been presenting

No. I think I've been pretty clear. It's just that some people in this thread have been having an emotional reaction to what I've said, and are consequently not paying very close attention.

[Leafsnail]

Putting in caveats like that doesn't change the fact that your ideas are baseless and wrong except in certain very traditionalist cultures.  We have Vector giving a coherent explanation why niceness is not necessarily an attractive trait and then we have you insisting that it's actually due to her feminine stoniness.

For one thing, under your theory "nice girls" would get all the guys because they're putting out "feminine energy" .  That really is not the case.

[Leatra]

Ooooh! My favorite topic of discussion. I'll just skip every reply and give a piece of my mind.

If you are reading this and consider yourself as a nice guy, please don't be offended. I'm not talking about the real nice guys here. I'm talking about the women's perspective of the stereotype of a (flawed) nice guy. I'm sure most of us consider ourselves as pretty badass when it comes to being nice right?

Nice guys are easier to control. They are shy and less likely to fight for themselves. Women don't want that. If you have a boyfriend and if you don't have fights with him regularly because he already agrees with you on everything, where is the fun in that? Controlling a rebellious guy however, is much more interesting. Women love to positively change their partners. Bad guys are more difficult to change but they usually need to change. Nice guys are willing to change but usually they don't need to change anyway.

Nice guys usually want a commitment and that can be a bad thing for some women. You can break up with a bad boy anytime. This is more of a negative trait than a positive train though. Women tend to be more likely to commit to a relationship.

Nice guys are sane, normal human beings. You can go shopping with them. Bad guys are willing to be more adventerous and crazy. You can have motorbike trips with them. What do you choose?

Lastly, this may sound weird but, females want to be protected by and to procreate with the strong males. Bad guys send the "I'm strong" message better than nice guys.

You can spot a nice guy pretending hard to be a bad guy easily. They are like the flaws of a bad guy and a nice guy combined. A good example would be past me. I remember resisting the urge of playing with a cat that hopped on my legs once just not to appear as a softie while in a group of bad boys. That was years ago, when I was a stupid and naive kiddo. I don't know if I'm bad or nice. I mean, I'm polite towards strangers but I can't resist making snarky comments when the opportunity presents itself and I can't stand dumb girls. Maybe balance is better. I can stop myself from making insultingly snarky comment on the web since I have time to think. Anyway, it's better to leave things to it's flow rather than forcing it.

LordBucket has... interesting ideas dont make snarky comments dont make snarky comments

[Lysabild]

I clearly acknowledge that people of one gender can play opposite gender roles

My problem starts here, for the exact same reasons as have already been gone over atleast 3 times.

[Putnam]

Lysabild, gender roles are a thing. That they are a cultural construct means nothing. They are still a thing. They aren't a concrete part of nature, but they're still in existence.

[Glowcat]

Maybe LordBucket should've described his relationships as 'sadist' versus 'masochist'. It would've made less assumptions about essential gender roles (and by extension the gender binary) while being slightly more entertaining.

Please nobody get that reference...

[Neonivek]

You can spot a nice guy pretending hard to be a bad guy easily. They are like the flaws of a bad guy and a nice guy combined.

An example. Well lets say the Nice guy pushes around his girlfriend. He is a nice guy so he does is akwardly, afterall he isn't really mean, yet he is technically being mean. Thus somehow having all the flaws of someone being a big fat meanie and yet at the same time also being the overly pushoverish unsure wet noodle.

[SalmonGod]

"Give a man a mask and he will show you his face." -Oscar Wilde

Oh, hey.  Never seen this quote before, but it's the best summation I've ever seen of why I love internet culture.  For all its flaws, it's also humanity laid bare.  It's like peering straight into the skull cavity of civilization.  This is also why I make friends easier online than off.  You get to know people pretty quickly.  When you meet someone in meatspace, you learn all the shallow stuff first, and build up to the deeper things.  You have to pierce a fortress of small talk and taboos and prejudices. You can know someone for weeks and know nothing about them beyond their demographics, their occupation, and their social habits.  Online, people cut straight to each other's thoughts and emotions on subjects they actually care about, and the interaction is completely on that level, without shallow judgments like skin color, weight, body language, or style of dress to get in the way.