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[darkrider2]

I consider myself a nice guy, I'm honest to a degree that it almost hurts my image at times, but lying puts my conscience into overdrive and I can't be bothered with that. That being said, I don't date very much or very often, not for lack of wanting to, its just I can rarely get up the courage to make a move. And I think if a lot of generally nice people actually just did what they wanted without second guessing it the whole nice guy issue might not be so prevalent.

That being said, my brother was a chick magnet in high school, and one day he offers to "teach" me, and says that it is literally a talent. I refused the offer, but it was a real wake up call to me, that people considered this a skill, like golfing might be a skill.

Inverting the topic for a bit here, I am literally incapable of holding a conversation with a girl who I would not consider to be nice. I find most girls who aren't nice to be wanting something, or just venting like all hell from serious problems. And well, I just don't have much to give, apart from understanding, and that's all I ask for anymore.

[Lysabild]

The 'nice' in 'nice guy' is just that, nice.

When I look for love, I don't look for fine, good or nice.

I look for outstanding, memorable and interesting, if there's a fight to pick in between then it's usually worth it.

And since interesting is highly subjective* I think that for the most part most people not just desperate for sex or comfort is like me in that regard.


*I don't think listening to people crap about fashion is interesting, but the individual persons passion and vigour can make me fall in love with just about any person, regardless of their interests for things that bore me to death.

[LordBucket]

It's more that assertive people get a million times more chances. Because, of course, they put themselves out there. They get rejected a lot more too.

Right, but a guy who is being "masculine" in the sense that I discuss is not affected by being rejected. The masculine acts upon, the feminine is acted upon. If a guy feels bad for being rejected, he is receiving and being acted upon, and therefore being feminine. A guy who is masculine will not be acted upon, and therefore not be affected by being rejected. This allows him to be rejected, and simply move on to the next girl without the fear and worry that a more feminine guy might feel. Thus it's easier for him to play the numbers. A guy who asks out a hundred girls is more likely to get a yes than a guy who asks out 1 then hides in his basement because he feels bad that he was rejected.

[Putnam]

Ugh. "Nice guys". They turn any sort of dysfunction in a relationship (A.K.A what happens when two people who aren't perfectly identical try to be close to each other often) into the man being a JERK and YOU MY FRIEND SHOULD GO OUT WITH ME INSTEAD.

Not to mention that whole thing they tend to have with not being able to be friends with a girl without expecting some sort of sexual relationship somewhere down the line. This whole concept of "friendzoning" is annoying, not because people get friendzoned, but because people consider it some sort of loss when they do, and they break off contact with the one who friendzoned them. That's damn scary and pretty exploitative.

[Neonivek]

The masculine acts upon, the feminine is acted upon

Are we applying these terms incorrectly?

[King DZA]

Man, all this talk of complicated relationship troubles sure makes glad I hate everyone too much to get involved in one.

[Putnam]

The masculine acts upon, the feminine is acted upon

Are we applying these terms incorrectly?

In American society, not at all. It's expected for the man to make the advances.

Man, all this talk of complicated relationship troubles sure makes glad I hate everyone too much to get involved in one.

Hehe, I like people too much to hate them. I'm not in a relationship because I don't feel like being in one.



Of course, there are the less creepy "nice guys" who just happen to get caught up in bitterness because of their submissiveness. I actually used to be one of these, hehe. Slapped myself into shape from that. (They're still creepy. I was creepy. Damn.)

[Muz]

I'm a very nice guy. But I speak the uncomfortable truth. I say impolite things. I criticize people when they need to be criticized; I think it's bad for someone to see a problem and not tell the people about it. Though my brutal honesty has made people trust me even more, because I'm just not the type who'd talk about people behind their backs. In a similar way, I like girls who are honest, aren't faking orgasms, etc.

I find most of the time, "nice" guys are fake. When people are nice - constantly giving you gifts, praising you, you get skeptical of them. Women tend to deal with them all the time, and they turn out to either be dicks or sissies... my girlfriend was dating a bunch of other guys simultaneously, and she turned down one of them because he was always talking about what a nice guy he was. A lot of the sleaziest people I know are excessively polite to women.

But being one of the nice guys without dates in the past, I think the frustration comes from how you're expected to just waltz up to a woman and ask her out. Because girls won't do that (it's unfeminine), so in school, the bad boys are the only one who make any move at all and trigger a connection. Whereas the nice guys get 'friendzoned' because they take the long tedious approach of being friends first.

Men and women want a relationship. There's nothing bad about asking a girl for a date, and it's something many of us take 5-10 years to figure out.


I did a little experiment once, by politely asking people at McDonald's if I could cut into the line in front of them. When they ask me why, I'd just reply, "I'm hungry." 4 times out of 5 they let me through if it's a short line.

I think the same concept applies to dating. Even if they don't actually want to date the guy, they'd say yes anyway because it's not like they're taken. And when they don't want to date the guy, they still stick to them. My wife once dated a loser for 4 years, simply because she didn't want to switch boyfriends, and broke up with him only after he got shotgun married to someone else. I've dated a loser for over a year, because I couldn't get a good excuse to dump her (eventually just went with a straightforward breakup).

It's not that bad boys are actually any better, but they put themselves in an advantageous position.

[Putnam]

There's a difference between "nice guys" and "Nice Guys". The distinction is that the latter thinks themselves nice (with no reason to think that); the former is nice.

[Solifuge]

Guys: you don't have to be an asshole to get girls. You don't need to be a jerk to get laid. You just need to stop hating msaculine energy and you need to stop acting like girls. Start being men. Being a man does not mean being an asshole. And if you really believe that it does...that is the problem you're having.

LordBucket, though you make a good philosophical argument within the realm of traditional genders, Femenine and Masculine are constructs of culture and not biology. You can opt to buy into them (and if you do that may well apply to your success in relationships) but if you don't, arguments based on this "Masculine and Femenine Nature" don't apply. It's not a fundamental failing for Men to be "Passive," and thereby not Manly. Some men learning to be passive is no less natural than some men not learning how to swim. What you're really seeing is a lack of harmony with an existing culture, not a lack of harmony with fundamental human nature.

Back to the original topic, I'm a very passive person by nature, and I have a simple set of needs... healthy food, a place to rest, some basic comforts, and access to information and tools to hone my skills. If left to my own devices, I tend to live a very intrinsic life gardening my mind in some way or other. At the same time, I love having new experiences... but unless I can share them with someone else, I tend to want to hold off on pursuing them until someone is able to join me. Being that I keep myself open, and am willing to try many things, I tend to have better results just going along with other people. Over the years, life has trained me to not initiate things, and instead surround myself with like-minded people who I can tag along with; It's easier for me to schedule my time around them than the other way around.

My most fulfilling relationships have been with people who get wild hairs to do something. Like the time my friend was inspired to have a midnight picnic on the spur of the moment... sure I was exhausted at work the next day, but I had a great time with her. I'm most attracted to people like that... passionate and slightly mercurial people. People with good intentions also rank pretty highly... someone who's "rough around the edges" or even downright coarse is fine, so long as their reasons for their outbursts are to make things better, and not because they needed to vent, and don't give a damn that it's at the expense of others. Kindness generally speaks well for this, but it's all about their root motivation. People who are nice "because they should be", or worse because they want to get something from the exchange, are a significant turn-off... and I've known women who do this just as well as men.

Spoiler: P.S. From the last thread (click to show/hide)

Being a nice person, and being a genuine or honest person are not naturally at odds. I can't vouch for the motivations of everyone, but I've gotten the "Nice Guy" label before, and can at least speak for myself in this regard.

When I go out of my way to do something for someone else, like hold a door open for someone, or cover them when they're a few cents short at a cash register, people might thank me, joke that I'm being chivalrous, or whatever. Though appreciation always feels good, I have other reasons for doing these sorts of things; they're near-effortless actions I can take, which generally save someone else considerably more work. Acts like that help create a tiny boost of efficiency, and make the greater machine of society, and the lives of those who make that society up, that much smoother. It's the basic spirit behind civilization itself. Every big thing, like a social environment, a national industry, or a person's lifetime, are each made up of individual choices and actions taken by the person or people that make it up, and everyone that interacts with them... and then, everyone who interacts with those tangentially-connected people, and so on, and so on.

So yeah, when I compliment someone's attitude, admire their ability to tell a joke, or thank them for helping me with something, it's because I'm impressed by or appreciate that quality they have... and I want them to cherish that aspect of themselves, because I feel it's making a positive difference in the world. This same spirit inspires critiques too... saying things like "You're a fantastic cook!" or "Learn how to drive!" both factor into this philosophy of leaving the places, people, and things I encounter better off than they were when I found them.

I think, when people are encouraging children to be nice to others, it's because they lack the language to be able to express how their every action contributes to the big picture. We, and every choice we make, connects us to everyone and everything else in thousands of ways we will never be able to know... and that's not a spirituality thing. It's a causality thing.

TL;DR - Let's try to not conflate "kindness" with "dishonesty for personal gain" here.

[Max White]

That being said, my brother was a chick magnet in high school, and one day he offers to "teach" me, and says that it is literally a talent. I refused the offer, but it was a real wake up call to me, that people considered this a skill, like golfing might be a skill.

No seriously, it really is, although it is more like selling a car.
You start with some small talk, this is your sales pitch. You are proving that you are a decent guy who has a few interests, is reasonably intelligent, isn't some crazy who dissects small mammals, and comes with power steering.
Then you ask if she wants to go do something, just as friends. You make it clear that it could lead to bigger things, but no expectations. If you both have fun and don't really feel it, then at least you had a fun time. The standard test drive before buying.
Finally, you have to literally ask if her if she wants to get more serious. Sign the papers with a kiss, and you just sold yourself into a relationship.

[Tellemurius]

Hmm thats a interesting topic. To be frank i have gotten screwed over many times while being the nice guy (friends step over me and blame me for stupid shit) and at this point its starting to tire me out. I am nice cause i like to keep a positive outlook to the world and my future, usually when i'm pissed something broke real hard and i start going on a blood hunt.
For relationships my last one i was a nice guy, we were friends for a while then i asked her out, went to the movies, went to her old school plays, we had fun hanging around her house, joked around alot but we kept that even between us so we weren't hurting each others feelings (i tend to just laugh at some bad jokes{niceguypart}), comforted each other as my family had move away and i stayed behind and i asked alot about her health since she had a blood disease that i can't remember right now, we were happy i smiled and she smiled. then i got dump on start of school, she tried the friendzoned me but i flat out told her no, granted i was pissed on that day due to other certain events but that was the tipping point for me.
Forever the damn reason she was harping on a crush on a douche that sadly hated being around her and rip on her when shes gone. Im sad i lost her but fuck i don't support stupid, im not coming back to her if she cant figure out what she wants and how to get it. last i heard 4 weeks after she dump me starts dating another douche that lasted for about a week (had a chuckle about that) and for the rest of time i just watch her from the sidelines and fail. wtf did i do wrong? Did i not do enough? was i giving her enough attention and also space? I don't have a damn clue. My question was: why the hell did i have to get hurt? I followed what was goddamn right and i got the axe in the end. What am i worth now?
So far the only the only people that ever appreciated a happy voice from me is customers. I don't like jobs where i can't solve a person's problem or I have to play run around. What satisfaction is there to piss someone off and strip them of cash? I refuse to work at any telemarketing or customer service jobs now due to the poor treatment. The last company i worked for gave me a boost that nice guy does go far. As a computer tech i had to help people fix their computers. i help people able to continue working on their business, find their lost documents, recover precious memories of photos and videos. What job can be more humane than that? I had people that were angry or hysterical on the phone that wanted a fix, i was happy to do so and they can hear it through the mic, i gave them something back dear to them and they loved me. Of course i failed at some times and I have been screamed at but for most they know i tried my hardest and willing to help them out more and i know that at least one person somewhere is happy with me on that line.
So a answer to your question, why do people not like nice people? I seen guys that just hand out daily shit to women and are praised by them. Funny part i beat up guys like that and they still get affection. what is going on? I understand not every woman is looking for a knight in shining armor but fuck you don't deserve even half of that shit. I'm going to believe to what my uncle says to why people act like this, plain ignorance: the fact that you ignore all of the bullshit to satisfy some small part of you. That they don't rely on their senses to examine their surroundings and instead walk around with tunnel vision, that you don't second-guess your thoughts and throw yourself at the world, that even witnessing the events unfold in front of you you decide to block them in your mind cause all you fucking care is that you have that person. Its the same reasons why people bitch at me about their failed relationships and are back together hoping its a change, its the same reasons why few abuse cases are recurring (please don't get into a argument about this as i know theres a bunch of factors involved and its not meant to be ill), its the same reasons why the human race is getting stupider by the minute.

I am one guy, im not even a dent to our culture, i will fade from this world knowing that everything i have done will be forgotten the moment my bones dry, i have made my goals in life simple as can be and tried to avoid any conflictions, i am not perfect but i am not the revolving dick on the ceiling, i have past sins and sought atonement for them, i am human and my legacy will pass for the same reason i argue today: ignorance.

and the end of my thought process for that hour.

[Neonivek]

When people are nice - constantly giving you gifts, praising you, you get skeptical of them.

Well... That does sound incredibly fake and as people know Compliments and gifts become trash if constantly lavished.

There's a difference between "nice guys" and "Nice Guys". The distinction is that the latter thinks themselves nice; the former is nice.

I think the issue here is that we absolutely do not have a definition of "Nice guy" and every single person has an entirely different construct.

We had a nice guy as someone who is just considerate and polite. Another as a pathetic loser who doesn't say mean things because they cannot handle rejection. Another as a person who is so insecure that they must lavish attention on their other to the point of sounding fake.

These are all different nice guys

However I think what needs exploring is what makes the "Mean guys" get dates MORE then just chance.

Lord Bucket, though you make a good philosophical argument within the realm of traditional genders, Femenine and Masculine are constructs of culture and not biology

Even if I were to "Accept" these concepts as biological. I wouldn't accept the conclusion of traits applied to each. I can understand it in terms of "Women have to see you as a Man" but not as "You have to act all manly"

---

Tellemarius I think you just "think" you are the "Nice guy".

There is a old saying "A Gentleman is still a Gentleman even when alone" and "You cannot be a vegetarian between meals"

[misko27]

I'm a very nice guy. But I speak the uncomfortable truth. I say impolite things. I criticize people when they need to be criticized; I think it's bad for someone to see a problem and not tell the people about it. Though my brutal honesty has made people trust me even more, because I'm just not the type who'd talk about people behind their backs. In a similar way, I like girls who are honest, aren't faking orgasms, etc.

I find most of the time, "nice" guys are fake. When people are nice - constantly giving you gifts, praising you, you get skeptical of them. Women tend to deal with them all the time, and they turn out to either be dicks or sissies... my girlfriend was dating a bunch of other guys simultaneously, and she turned down one of them because he was always talking about what a nice guy he was. A lot of the sleaziest people I know are excessively polite to women.

But being one of the nice guys without dates in the past, I think the frustration comes from how you're expected to just waltz up to a woman and ask her out. Because girls won't do that (it's unfeminine), so in school, the bad boys are the only one who make any move at all and trigger a connection. Whereas the nice guys get 'friendzoned' because they take the long tedious approach of being friends first.

Men and women want a relationship. There's nothing bad about asking a girl for a date, and it's something many of us take 5-10 years to figure out.


I did a little experiment once, by politely asking people at McDonald's if I could cut into the line in front of them. When they ask me why, I'd just reply, "I'm hungry." 4 times out of 5 they let me through if it's a short line.

I think the same concept applies to dating. Even if they don't actually want to date the guy, they'd say yes anyway because it's not like they're taken. And when they don't want to date the guy, they still stick to them. My wife once dated a loser for 4 years, simply because she didn't want to switch boyfriends, and broke up with him only after he got shotgun married to someone else. I've dated a loser for over a year, because I couldn't get a good excuse to dump her (eventually just went with a straightforward breakup).

It's not that bad boys are actually any better, but they put themselves in an advantageous position.

This, terrifies me a little. Not, quite sure why.
 

Man, all this talk of complicated relationship troubles sure makes glad I hate everyone too much to get involved in one.

This man knows the path to elightenment. All Hail DZA!
 
Wait, so then in these definitions, I'm a nice guy. Man, That's sad. I feel bad for the race of nice people.
 
EDIT: NO MORE NINJAS WITH MASSIVE POSTS. IT TOOK ME A FEW SECONDS TO WRITE THIS. IN WHAT TIME WARP DO YOU LIVE?!?

[kaijyuu]

It's more that assertive people get a million times more chances. Because, of course, they put themselves out there. They get rejected a lot more too.

Right, but a guy who is being "masculine" in the sense that I discuss is not affected by being rejected. The masculine acts upon, the feminine is acted upon. If a guy feels bad for being rejected, he is receiving and being acted upon, and therefore being feminine. A guy who is masculine will not be acted upon, and therefore not be affected by being rejected. This allows him to be rejected, and simply move on to the next girl without the fear and worry that a more feminine guy might feel. Thus it's easier for him to play the numbers. A guy who asks out a hundred girls is more likely to get a yes than a guy who asks out 1 then hides in his basement because he feels bad that he was rejected.

I really take issue with your constant use of "masculine" and "feminine." Fuck those stereotypes; I'm a man, I decide what it means to be one. It doesn't decide what I am, nor what I should be.

Those are stereotypes. Correlations, at best.


People, be who you are. Don't hide, don't manipulate. Don't follow gender stereotypes if they don't apply to you. Put yourself out there and someone will take interest in you, and if you're lucky, you in them. You don't have to play games. Be honest with yourself and others.