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[Vector]

I've been thinking about this a lot recently.  To my surprise, I discovered recently that "nice guy" is really low on my own list of traits I look for in a partner.  I used to think that what I wanted more than anything was someone who treated everyone decently and about whom everyone felt good, but found that I'd be glad to go out with someone who rubbed a lot of people the wrong way as long as we shared a deep mutual understanding and they were, at their core, a fairly decent person.  I didn't want "nice," I wanted "knowing."

More than that, when I'm just as nice as I can think to be, the results tend to be pretty bad.  I feel taken for granted, whereas men seem to act nicer when I'm aloof and disinterested.  My friends tell me that they appreciate my prickly personality and "like it when I yell at them."

Indeed, I hear plenty of women also saying "why do men always go for the bitches?" and have rarely heard any answer to the main question framed with something other than evolutionary psychology, which usually neglects this gender-rotated side of the equation.  In particular, I'm bisexual with a mild preference for women, and have noticed that in both cases the objects of my affection seem to be a little bit rough around the edges.

So, with that motivation: what do you folks think?  Do you prefer partners who others consider mean?  Have you been a "nice guy" and had it work out for you?  How important are niceness and outpourings of affection for you?


* To be as specific as possible: I'm not talking about the thing where folks pretend to be nice and then are actually assholes trying to buy someone else's body with compliments.  I'm trying to talk more specifically about why genuine nice may be less important to people than other stuff.

[Grakelin]

People who claim to be "nice guys" and complain that they can't compete with "jerks" never seem to be nice guys. Not because they're just flattering people around them, but because they're often self-centred and mopey. They may think they're being nice, but nobody wants to actually date a crybaby. I can't conceive of a situation where somebody giving me an "outpouring of affection" could make me want to start a relationship with them. Every scenario just feels desperate. If somebody is going to pump their inner feelings into me, I'd prefer it if we were already in a relationship.

Similarly, everybody on the planet rubs at least a few people the wrong way. If somebody is so genuinely inoffensive that everybody they meet has only positive opinions on them, you have to wonder when they're going to quit being boring and stand up for something.

[Frumple]

I... define "nice" for me, maybe? What are you thinking when you think the concept of nice, here? Because I've met quite a few people who almost everyone felt good about and who treated everyone they regularly interacted with very decently who were bigoted rat bastards. I'm actually one of the few people I've met that (for some ungodly reason I can't seem to figure out) tend to get good responses from almost everyone, and that has a whole hell of a lot more with being polite (and more accurately, civil*) than being nice; sometimes the only right thing to do is politely tell the other party to go screw themselves. And don't ask me how, but somehow even the cases where I've gone and done that ended up with better working, so to speak, relationships with those involved. Streak will break sooner or later, but it hasn't yet.

And... maybe "mean", too. There's a difference between, say, unwarranted hostility and aggression (which I'd probably call mean) and warranted hostility and aggression. You can disagree without being mean, after all. I can't actually maintain a beyond facile interpersonal relationship (nevermind anything approaching romantic) with folks that indulge in the former with any regularity, but the latter exercised well tends to endure me to people.

Caveat to everything above being I am and have been largely asexual for my life to date, due largely to environmental factors, but I can probably chime in a bit for the very rare cases I've actually felt attraction toward people... providing I understand the question

*Which translates into something along the lines of very fundamental, underlying respect; to wit, my personal internalization of civility is the tact recognition that everyone I interact with can kill me, that I can do the same, and that we've decided -- perhaps implicitly, perhaps explicitly -- not to, and should both respect each other for that decision. Civilization, yeah.

[Neonivek]

"Nice" tends to mean low key.

It isn't so much that Women "don't like nice guys" they do in fact. It is that "Nice guys" are the ones who tend to take the least chances with a relationship and advance it the slowest because they are too "nice" to be forceful.

Not because they're just flattering people around them, but because they're often self-centred and mopey

That is true too

---

Ultimately I think what we found is that "Nice" isn't the problem. We arn't talking about people who are "Too nice" we are talking about why "Not nice" people seem to be more successful.

What are you thinking when you think the concept of nice, here?

Kind and considerate. The kind of person who puts others needs infront of their own and are willing to help when the need arises.

These are all definitions of Nice.

however Mean is sort of the opposite of Nice. While Harsh is sort of the opposite of Kind.

---

As for "Too nice" people the problem is obvious. When you are too nice you have no force of personality. Someone who is too nice basically might as well not be there. They do what you want and are happy to do so, they are considerate even when you are not, and rarely push back. A lot on relationships are a give and take and a "Too nice" person can only give, ultimately creating a flawed relationship.

Even if you are a kind person yourself a "Too nice" person will drain you because they cannot recieve your kindness back.

[kaijyuu]

but nobody wants to actually date a crybaby.

I do! Well maybe not a hypersensitive crybaby, but sensitive guy who isn't sure of himself? Sign me up.


I'll just quote myself from another thread.

As someone who's attracted to men and is generally on the submissive side of things, I'll give what I want. I'm not a lady but I believe I fit most the stereotypes of women when it comes to dating.

First off, be yourself. I want to see a human being, not a mask you wear to try and make yourself more attractive.
Secondly, communicate your interests. If you're just friendly to me then I'll have no idea you want a romantic relationship.
Thirdly, be honest. Not only about your intentions, but also in your flirting/etc. Don't call me good looking unless you actually believe that. Don't give me gifts unless you want to give me gifts. Don't bribe, don't flatter.


Douchebags get girls because they fit all three of those. They don't hide anything, they're forward, and they don't try to bribe. "Dont' be an ass" isn't one of the prerequisites, though it might be for me, along with any girl you'll likely want to even date in the first place.

Long story short, continue to be nice, but don't manipulate, and tell her what you want. That's it. If you feel you have to be a jerk to get a girl, that's not a girl you want to pursue. Period.

[Max White]

The problem is what some people think is 'nice' is actually much closer to 'No self respect pushover'
I know nice guys who literally always get the girl. It is a little intimidating. But they really are nice people. The big thing though is that they have enough self respect to only do something because they want to, rather than go along with anything because they want to get into a girls pants.

[LordBucket]

"Why don't women like nice guys?"

have rarely heard any answer to the main question framed with something other than evolutionary psychology

It's not that women don't like nice guys. It's that "nice or mean" is not particularly relevant to the masculine/feminine relationship.

This comes to an issue of the nature of what is masculine and what is feminine. Set aside "biological male and female" for a moment and look at "masculine and feminine" in the eastern sense of Yin Yang rather than western sense of belching and sports vs pretty pink puppies.

Consider a sculpter working on a sculpture. The masculine sculpter works his intent upon the feminine stone, and she receives it, and becomes the sculpture that he intends. This is a very basic masculine/feminine relationship. And it works. You'll notice that the sculpter "being nice" is not relevant to the exchange. He can like the rock or hate the rock or be indifferent to the rock...it doesn't matter. He can intend to make a pretty sculpture, he can intend to make an ugly sculpture...it doesn't matter. What matters is that his masculine intent is conveyed to the feminine rock, which receives and becomes what it is intended.

Human beings are more complex than this, but the basic masculine and feminine energy relationship still applies. When a "biological male human being" attempts to relate to a "biological female human being" by being nice, and seeking permission, and idolizing her...he's not acting in harmony with the basic Yin Yang energy relationship. When he wait for her to initiate sex, when he gives her control of the relationship...he's playing the feminine role. If she identifies with feminine energy, and is seeking masculine energy...it's not a natural response for her to respond to feminine energy with feminine energy.

On the other hand, when a guy comes along and clearly communicates intent...when a guy who knows what he wants and takes action to try to make it happen...it's more natural for her to respond to that "masculine energy" with her own "feminine energy." Whether that guy is nice or an asshole isn't relevant. Again...it doesn't matter if a sculpter thinks kindly of the stone he works with so long as he applies himself to the stone, the stone is likely to respond. Feminine women tend to behave similarly.

This is further complicated by the apparent tendency of guys who fall into the "nice guy" stereotype to have emotional issues surrounding masculinity. Simply put...a lot of guys who make the complaint that "guys who get girls are assholes" seem to believe that there's something basically wrong with acting in concert with masculine energy.

Feminine energy is fundamentlly non-judgemental. If a sculpter applies energy to stone to turn it into a beautiful sculpture of a bird, the stone will become a sculputre of a beautiful bird. If a sculpter applies energy to a stone to turn it into a messy pile of pebbles...the stone will become a messy pile of pebbles. The stone performed its feminine role by accepting the masculine energy it was offered. The stone doesn't argue with the sculpter that no it doesn't want to be a sculpture of a bird or messy pebbles. Again...I acknowledge that human beings are more complicated than this...but the underlying nature of masculine and feminine energy still applies. If "biological female human" wants to be feminine, then on some level she wants to receive masculine energy and become as it desires. That want is there. And when a guy comes long and tries to fulfill that want...is it any surprise if she accepts it?

So...what happens when a "stereotypical nice guy" comes along genuinely believing that nice guys don't get girls and that girls want bad guys? Well, there's a tendency for feminine energy to respond to that and make it so. He believes nice guys don't get girls, and he's broadcasting that he's a nice guy, and he's not broadcasting that she should be his girlfriend. Is it any surprise if she accepts what he's broadcasting, that guys like him don't get girls, and acts on it? He's giving her the energy to act on to become exactly what he doesn't want, and she is acting on it...just like any rock being sculpted.

This whole thing is simply a failure on the part of western society to understand the nature of masculine and feminine energy, combined with a whole lot of guilt and anger directed at men.

Guys: you don't have to be an asshole to get girls. You don't need to be a jerk to get laid. You just need to stop hating msaculine energy and you need to stop acting like girls. Start being men. Being a man does not mean being an asshole. And if you really believe that it does...that is the problem you're having.

[LordBucket]

Double post. Silly lag.

[Max White]

You make an interesting philosophical argument, LordBucket.
Would you explain how

Indeed, I hear plenty of women also saying "why do men always go for the bitches?"

Fits within your current model? I am wondering how that would work now...

[Neonivek]

So Lord Bucket is really talking about Confidence

And this "Nice guy" is the "Nice Loser" steriotype.

Also "Mean guys" tend to be able to at LEAST pretend to be nice. How many Jerk do you know get "All the girls" by being a jerk to all of them?

[misko27]

Hmm. I'm low-key, but a selfish egotistical bastard (Who keeps it to myself. With people I don't know well, or much, or not alot, or well, anyone I don't completely know I'm perfectly polite. No, I don't count the internet.). Actually, being egotistical makes you very easy to insult. You take things very persoanlly. (I've gotten over it more so then others, due to being viciously insulted ALOT as a child, but still.)
 
I agree with Frumple, and alot of other people. Your definition of nice doesn't match mine. I'm polite to everyone I meet, but that doesn't make me nice. My father is a perfect gentlemen to everyone, and is still a cruel, evil, con artist. He's the walking definition of a abusive douchebag, but he is polite. And, furthermore, he can seduce a large number of people (Well, he could if he wasn't ugly. and 62. and fat. and wearing a wig.), but, he isn't nice. At all.

So, now that the debate is more clearly re-framed in terms of passivity, I don't know. I've come myself to the conclusion that women do prefer assertive people, but it's stil unclear.

[Kilroy the Grand]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Why don't women like nice guys?"

have rarely heard any answer to the main question framed with something other than evolutionary psychology

It's not that women don't like nice guys. It's that "nice or mean" is not particularly relevant to the masculine/feminine relationship.

This comes to an issue of the nature of what is masculine and what is feminine. Set aside "biological male and female" for a moment and look at "masculine and feminine" in the eastern sense of Yin Yang rather than western sense of belching and sports vs pretty pink puppies.

Consider a sculpter working on a sculpture. The masculine sculpter works his intent upon the feminine stone, and she receives it, and becomes the sculpture that he intends. This is a very basic masculine/feminine relationship. And it works. You'll notice that the sculpter "being nice" is not relevant to the exchange. He can like the rock or hate the rock or be indifferent to the rock...it doesn't matter. He can intend to make a pretty sculpture, he can intend to make an ugly sculpture...it doesn't matter. What matters is that his masculine intent is conveyed to the feminine rock, which receives and becomes what it is intended.

Human beings are more complex than this, but the basic masculine and feminine energy relationship still applies. When a "biological male human being" attempts to relate to a "biological female human being" by being nice, and seeking permission, and idolizing her...he's not acting in harmony with the basic Yin Yang energy relationship. When he wait for her to initiate sex, when he gives her control of the relationship...he's playing the feminine role. If she identifies with feminine energy, and is seeking masculine energy...it's not a natural response for her to respond to feminine energy with feminine energy.

On the other hand, when a guy comes along and clearly communicates intent...when a guy who knows what he wants and takes action to try to make it happen...it's more natural for her to respond to that "masculine energy" with her own "feminine energy." Whether that guy is nice or an asshole isn't relevant. Again...it doesn't matter if a sculpter thinks kindly of the stone he works with so long as he applies himself to the stone, the stone is likely to respond. Feminine women tend to behave similarly.

This is further complicated by the apparent tendency of guys who fall into the "nice guy" stereotype to have emotional issues surrounding masculinity. Simply put...a lot of guys who make the complaint that "guys who get girls are assholes" seem to believe that there's something basically wrong with acting in concert with masculine energy.

Feminine energy is fundamentlly non-judgemental. If a sculpter applies energy to stone to turn it into a beautiful sculpture of a bird, the stone will become a sculputre of a beautiful bird. If a sculpter applies energy to a stone to turn it into a messy pile of pebbles...the stone will become a messy pile of pebbles. The stone performed its feminine role by accepting the masculine energy it was offered. The stone doesn't argue with the sculpter that no it doesn't want to be a sculpture of a bird or messy pebbles. Again...I acknowledge that human beings are more complicated than this...but the underlying nature of masculine and feminine energy still applies. If "biological female human" wants to be feminine, then on some level she wants to receive masculine energy and become as it desires. That want is there. And when a guy comes long and tries to fulfill that want...is it any surprise if she accepts it?

So...what happens when a "stereotypical nice guy" comes along genuinely believing that nice guys don't get girls and that girls want bad guys? Well, there's a tendency for feminine energy to respond to that and make it so. He believes nice guys don't get girls, and he's broadcasting that he's a nice guy, and he's not broadcasting that she should be his girlfriend. Is it any surprise if she accepts what he's broadcasting, that guys like him don't get girls, and acts on it? He's giving her the energy to act on to become exactly what he doesn't want, and she is acting on it...just like any rock being sculpted.

This whole thing is simply a failure on the part of western society to understand the nature of masculine and feminine energy, combined with a whole lot of guilt and anger directed at men.

Guys: you don't have to be an asshole to get girls. You don't need to be a jerk to get laid. You just need to stop hating msaculine energy and you need to stop acting like girls. Start being men. Being a man does not mean being an asshole. And if you really believe that it does...that is the problem you're having.

You could have just said "be assertive."

[kaijyuu]

It's more that assertive people get a million times more chances. Because, of course, they put themselves out there. They get rejected a lot more too.

[Max White]

I think maybe there is also some cognitive bias here.
When somebody you dislike is in a happy relationship, that is going to have a much greater impact than if somebody you are indifferent to is in a relationship.

[LordBucket]

You make an interesting philosophical argument, LordBucket.
Would you explain how

Indeed, I hear plenty of women also saying "why do men always go for the bitches?"

Fits within your current model? I am wondering how that would work now...

This is something I'm less familiar with. If I were to venture a guess, it would be one of two things:

1) As mentioned a lot of western men have some kind of guilt thing going and believe on some level that the masculine is "evil" somehow. Those men have a tendency to play the feminine role. If they believe that women like jerks and they're acting the feminine role...it doesn't seem like such a stretch that they might seek women playing the masculine role and being jerks...because they believe on some level that women like jerks...they're being the women, so they think they're supposed to be with a jerk.

2) There might be some guys who want to act out the masculine role as a conqueror. A girl who has a masculine streak would be more difficult to conquer. It's difficult to be both a bitch and feminine, because it's not congruent with feminine energy to act upon others. If a girl is being a bitch, by definition she's acting upon others (in ways that is not appreciated is irrelevant, it's still masculine to act upon others) and therefore is exhibiting masculine energy. This makes her a more "worthy opponent." Sort of like how beating someone who's really good at chess and trying really hard to make you lose is more of a challenge, and more "prestigious" than beating someone who lets you win because they like you and want for you to win. Overcoming a bitch and forcing her to be feminine for you is the act of a conqueror.

But I'm speculating in both cases. I haven't observed many guys to "go for bitches" at all.