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[Phenoix12]

I'm thinking silkworms maybe?

Silkworms could work very well.  I'm thinking they would work like bees maybe. (i.e. requiring a sort of 'hive' and a silk work to start production of the silk)


Also what's the actual size of our 'little' ponies anyway. (and for that matter the rest of the races)  I was goofing around and added in humans to be played only as outsiders in adventure mode for fun and discovered that pony clothing and armor is considered to be 'large' in respects to a human. (also Diamond Dogs, haven't checked wearable crafts from other races yet but I assume they are the same)

[Sorcerer]

Up until the version i have on my drive now they were all 500000urists. (dwarves are 60000) I think they were based off horses initially, and I never thought to change it, I did look into the sizes after ExOtto said everything was a pushover and realized that due to the relative sizes, all non-modded creatures were complete pushovers. I tweaked everything down quite a lot..

in the current version

Code: [Select]

Ponies and zebra 100000
griffons 125000,
diamond dogs between 65000 (digdog) and 150000 (bigdog)
changelings 75000 (drones) 125000 (soldiers) 150000 (breeder) 175000 queen
buffalo 400000

[Valikdu]

I'm thinking silkworms maybe?

Silkworms could work very well.  I'm thinking they would work like bees maybe. (i.e. requiring a sort of 'hive' and a silk work to start production of the silk)

For example, there's this useable code: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6023

[Sorcerer]

Started the rework of the gem system, instead of "crystalizing" gems which is in the current version, I'll be using magic gems as part of items. I've also  cut down the amount of gem types dramatically.
Currently there are five gems, Sapphires, Rubies, Emeralds, Amethysts and Diamonds, and they come in five different quality ranges, Faded, Dull, Normal, Shining and Illustrious.

Each gem type will grant different bonuses at different strengths, depending on item and gems used.

For instance, a silk cloak inlaid with two shining rubies and an illustrious diamond could grant [FIREIMMUNE]... tho this will require DFhack and the material syndrome plugin to work.

[Phenoix12]

Up until the version i have on my drive now they were all 500000urists. (dwarves are 60000) I think they were based off horses initially, and I never thought to change it, I did look into the sizes after ExOtto said everything was a pushover and realized that due to the relative sizes, all non-modded creatures were complete pushovers. I tweaked everything down quite a lot..

in the current version

Code: [Select]

Ponies and zebra 100000
griffons 125000,
diamond dogs between 65000 (digdog) and 150000 (bigdog)
changelings 75000 (drones) 125000 (soldiers) 150000 (breeder) 175000 queen
buffalo 400000

...I think we should make the equine races smaller because they're current size is kinda large.

Humans = 70000
Ponies =  100000
Alicorns = 250000

I tend to use this picture as a reference for size https://derpibooru.org/387884

Though if we were to make them that tiny they'd be super easy for all the beasts of the world to murder and in fortress mode you'd need to make have a well trained and well armed soldiers to defend ready at all times.
So maybe make them the size of dwarves?

Started the rework of the gem system, instead of "crystalizing" gems which is in the current version, I'll be using magic gems as part of items. I've also  cut down the amount of gem types dramatically.
Currently there are five gems, Sapphires, Rubies, Emeralds, Amethysts and Diamonds, and they come in five different quality ranges, Faded, Dull, Normal, Shining and Illustrious.

Each gem type will grant different bonuses at different strengths, depending on item and gems used.

For instance, a silk cloak inlaid with two shining rubies and an illustrious diamond could grant [FIREIMMUNE]... tho this will require DFhack and the material syndrome plugin to work.

Much like your idea of removing the different leather types I also don't like the idea of removing all the different gem types.  I do like the idea of certain gems that have magic properties but I don't think that you should remove all the other gem types.

Also did you ever think of move the "crystalizing" ability to another race... such as crystal ponies?  (Actually crystal ponies would be excellent fit for that ability, along with one that allows them to make crystal blocks so that we can build cities out of crystals!)

[Sorcerer]

Again, material reduction is a memory / fps saving trick, and when it comes to the gems it is also for convenience. If only some gems are useful in crafting, all other gems will just reduce the odds of you getting something you can use. Most of the gemstones in the df raws are more akin to "shiny rocks" than the pre-cut gems the ponies dig up in the show. :p

As for size I'm still looking at the balance. Making them smaller and more reliant on magic and teamwork would be fun, but will probably require dfhack to fully utillize

[ExOttoyuhr]

Up until the version i have on my drive now they were all 500000urists. (dwarves are 60000) I think they were based off horses initially, and I never thought to change it, I did look into the sizes after ExOtto said everything was a pushover and realized that due to the relative sizes, all non-modded creatures were complete pushovers. I tweaked everything down quite a lot..

But I liked having the normal creatures be pushovers! It's what would happen, I think, and it makes an interesting point about the original game, that the dwarves are so small that they have to rely on training and engineering, while ponies, for example, can just trust to raw strength and applebucking. I wouldn't want to be the goblin warlord who led his army to invade Equestria. (Nor Griffonstan. It's the common consensus of all fantasy that griffins are not to be messed with -- but in FIM, they're a peripheral minor power...)

Scaled-down ponies will also make it even harder to figure out what's going on with that phantom-sieges situation. Perhaps I can try debugging that by scaling up dwarves...

As for sizes, though, that image ref is pretty compelling. I'd had the impression that the ponies were about the size of real-world ones...


Also, taliakirana, thanks a lot for the tip on magic looms! They weren't in the 34.11 mod (edit: or rather, in Fanon is Magic for 34.11 -- I think it's a relative of this mod), but this will be good to know for the current one.

My understanding is that bone's advantage is the same as ivory's, that it's durable, relatively lightweight, and easy to work. I wonder what pony product (preferably one with Classical mythological overtones, like magic fleece) could serve in that role...

[Phenoix12]

As for size I'm still looking at the balance. Making them smaller and more reliant on magic and teamwork would be fun, but will probably require dfhack to fully utillize

I don't know why it would require DF hack...  well the 'magic' part might but the teamwork doesn't.
And what about this for a size scale

Equinoid races (i.e. Ponies, Zebra, Changelings): 60000 or 70000 (Alicorns and changeling queens would be larger or just have modifiers for tallness)
Griffin: apx 75000
Buffalo: 80000

Up until the version i have on my drive now they were all 500000urists. (dwarves are 60000) I think they were based off horses initially, and I never thought to change it, I did look into the sizes after ExOtto said everything was a pushover and realized that due to the relative sizes, all non-modded creatures were complete pushovers. I tweaked everything down quite a lot..

As for sizes, though, that image ref is pretty compelling. I'd had the impression that the ponies were about the size of real-world ones...

There is a reason they are called 'little' ponies

[Lukander]

On the issue of scale... I fiddled around with the horse volume and then rescaled that to the G4 MLP characters based off of the size charts floating around. I got roughly 62500 Urists(I think cubic cm) out of it. slightly larger than a Dwarf, by volume(scaling and the square-cube law are annoying... grumble, grumble).

I haven't figured out good relsize numbers for Pony Body parts yet-- still trying though.

[Phenoix12]

On the issue of scale... I fiddled around with the horse volume and then rescaled that to the G4 MLP characters based off of the size charts floating around. I got roughly 62500 Urists(I think cubic cm) out of it. slightly larger than a Dwarf, by volume(scaling and the square-cube law are annoying... grumble, grumble).

I haven't figured out good relsize numbers for Pony Body parts yet-- still trying though.

relsize is just the body parts size in relation to the other parts. So I think it's good... or not I'm not that sure how relsize works.

[Maklak]

Ponies are about the size of a german shepard, except for the oversized head. I'd say 30-50kg for an average pony tops. Then 50-80 kg for Big Mac or Luna and 100-150 kg for Celestia (she is very slim for her size).

If ponies are pushovers... well, it is bad from gameplay perspective, but in the show the guard never seems to be able to accomplish anything anyway.

Well, on the plus side, equipment weight scales with creature size, but encumberance does not, so smaller creatures are less encumbered by armour.

As for gems, Fallout Equestria mod has a rather interesting system. Gems were renamed like this [IS_GEM:rose quartz (D1):rose quartzes (D1):OVERWRITE_SOLID] and assigned to a reaction class: [REACTION_CLASS:DESTRUCTION_LOW] Then they could be made into items, most notably spell hologems which could be used to teach magic to Unicorns. Unicorns were sorted by CMs, most able to learn just low-level spells in one single school of magic, but others could get some pretty powerful stuff. It wasn't that overpowered for the amount of effort and book-keeping it took, but it was still rewarding to have a magic CM pony in the military throwing down spells. Too bad they only worked against the weaker enemies.

I think these images are a bit on the big side as far as ponies go. There was an older chart I can't find that put pony head height at 1.2m maybe. Or was it 1m?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Sorcerer]

Relsize is relative size, yes, and determines hit chance and tissue thickness as far as I've understood.
Testing in arena has shown that the current barding may be a smidgen overpowered.. two ponies using iron barding and iron swords are utterly incapable of defeating eachother and will fight until they both pass out of exhaustion unfortunately I think it's the only way to really do armor atm.

Tested in the new version with the improved tree climbing costs and reduced flier jumpyness.. pegasi still try to make nests in trees with hauled items..
may need to get a forbid trees DFHack plugin :/

[Telgin]

I can see something like that being produced quickly once DFHack works in the new version, if for no reason other than to keep dwarves from falling out of trees in vanilla.

Also, I had similar experiences with armor and weapons in older mods.  Bladed stuff seems to do poorly against its own material in general, so I don't think there's a whole lot you can do other than make the armor just not cover entirely.  That feels a bit heavy handed though...

Also, for relative body part sizing: don't forget to make heads and eyes extra big and easy to hit. 

[Lukander]

Ah, the relsize issue was that by show and toy standards the ponies would have relatively over-sized heads and eyes, thick but short legs, coupled with small bodies. I could gloss over that as a 'translation convention' with the style or attempt to represent it in game... Those images Maklak used are generally in line with the apple, candy cane and EQG based comparative size charts. I used those to calculate the 62500 Urist(cm³) volume. Which also seems reasonable when I look at the (IRL)humans used in the size charts. Human body volume verse pony body volume doesn't look to divergent from one another(distribution of volume is however). G1's would be closer to 125000 Urists in volume(a little under I think?); more like some breeds of IRL pony. The G4's are closer to IRL miniature horses(which are smaller than IRL ponies). Ball-parking the volumes is a lot easier than getting a good relsize balance for the BPs(if show accurate relative part sizes are desired)... Especially if you want to avoid giant(or micro) teeth and ribs in relation to everything else.  Anyway nice comparative size post Maklak(the versions that made them notably smaller were recalculated later on. taking into account stance and 'camera shot' angle; so 48 inches to the top of the head was the most common result afterward. Across the charts)

[Hetairos]

Ponies and zebras seem to have quite resilient heads. Even a GCS can't penetrate a pony skull. I wonder if that's a mod thing or a result of Toady's changes. Either way, this grants everyone involved a lot of survivability in combat due to brain injuries being the chief source of instant death in DF. Changelings and griffons are affected as well, but seemingly to a lesser degree (they take less time to bleed out - I admit I haven't done a whole lot of testing on that, though). Unicorns and buffaloes make combat a lot more lethal thanks to their sharp horns.

When it comes to the size, I always assumed that Celestia is about as tall as an average horse (so about 200 kg, give or take a few, keeping in mind obvious morphological differences) and went from there. The end result was fairly similar to the more sophisticated estimates. Giving the different body parts somewhat more balanced dimensions is probably a sound decision. I wonder if the square/cube law gets involved at some point.