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Author Topic: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN VICTORY  (Read 78466 times)

Captain Ford

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - ONE REPLACEMENT REQUESTED
« Reply #150 on: October 22, 2012, 06:13:17 pm »

There's a few things I'd like to follow-up.

Nerjin: You seem absolutely certain that Mr. Zero is scum. Why is that?

ShoesandHats: You said before that you thought xny and zero might be a scumteam. Why haven't you put any pressure on xny?

Borno: Welcome to the game. I can't think of any original questions for you right now, but I'd like to ask for your opinion about Nerjin as well.
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Nerjin

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #151 on: October 22, 2012, 06:29:07 pm »

Read my previous posts. I have nothing more to add to them at this point.
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Captain Ford

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - ONE REPLACEMENT REQUESTED
« Reply #152 on: October 22, 2012, 07:43:00 pm »

Read my previous posts. I have nothing more to add to them at this point.
Lots of evidence.

Sorry, I'd missed that.
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ShoesandHats

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #153 on: October 22, 2012, 09:13:19 pm »

Sorry for not having posted in a while. I've got another, bigger post in another tab, but this is mostly just letting people know that I've not abandoned ship.
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ShoesandHats

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #154 on: October 22, 2012, 09:17:37 pm »

And here it is.

ShoesandHats: You said before that you thought xny and zero might be a scumteam. Why haven't you put any pressure on xny?

Actually, that's a good point. Though now that I've said that if I actually try to put pressure on him he'll know to keep cool.

Shoesandhats You say you have your opinions and evidence, what's holding you back to display/share it ? Even if it's something that may be used against me.

I mostly didn't provide posts because if I did, my post alone would probably take up an entire page. Here, have some spoilered quotes in which you two go at each other.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Those are all the quotes that I could find. Some of them are a bit messed up, but I'm not sure why. It gets across the point, though, and the point is that you two might be fighting a lot in order to seem like town and to draw suspicion away from your partnership.

As Jim once said: Scum rarely put together this sort of super-villian-esque plans.

That's hardly super-villain-ey. Super-villainey is scheming to build a giant death ray. This is just regular scum tactics.

Those are all the quotes that I could find. Some of them are a bit messed up, but I'm not sure why. It gets across the point, though, and the point is that you two might be fighting a lot in order to seem like town and to draw suspicion away from your partnership.

I'm not reading that.

Make your point intelligible. That is to say, find the most relevant and demonstrative evidence, and then state your opinion about it as concisely as possible.

You want people to vote with you and agree with your case, right? Then you should take care to make your points as clearly as possible and as convincing as possible.

Further, I asked you how their argument made you think they were scum. You didn't answer this question. You simply gave me a million posts, and declared that your conclusion was obvious. I disagree. You're going to have to explain and justify your point if you actually want people to care, much less agree with you.

Or maybe lazy bandwagons are your thing.

Fair enough.

See, it's quotes like this that get me suspicious:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The ones where they only reply to each other, often replying to questions not meant for them. Here's another, except in this one he's also replying to my theory:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is exactly why I say that they are just a wee too eager to go at each other in particular, rather than anyone else. While it is a common scum tactic to simply ignore your partner for the most part, there's another tactic on the other end of the spectrum, which is to simply attack each other relentlessly. The goal of it being to draw suspicion away by saying "Look at us, we're far to aggressive towards each other to ever possibly be scum buddies!"

xny

If you and Mr. Zero aren't scum buddies, why are you focusing on him in particular?
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Jim Groovester

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #155 on: October 23, 2012, 12:04:05 am »

I'm trying to show the others that you're scum if my view-point happens to coincide with another's well then that's fine by me because it shows that the Town knows what to look for in scum. Namely you.

Be careful here; it's immensely satisfying to know that someone agrees with you, but you should give intense scrutiny to another player when they do.

You should make sure that you're not paving the way for lazy scum to use your attack on another player to cruise through the game. You should do this by making sure that a player's attack looks legitimate, that they appear to be hunting for scum and not just hunting for the path of least resistance.

It's a trap I fall into all the time. Frequently in the post-game analysis I find that members of the scum team agreed with me when I was attacking certain players.

Jim: You trying to hatch an egg?  You've been sitting on that vote long enough.  Who are your top two scumpicks right now?

My vote's where I want it.

I want Nabic to answer this question. I'm probably paranoid, but Nabic's original question appeared like it was trying to logic me into admitting that scumtells are meta plays and therefore I should discard them, because as an IC I am a perfect logician and also a creature of absolute commitment and could therefore be maneuvered into discarding all my mafia experience by sheer force of logic. Further, I don't see how the question is at all useful from a town perspective, what it tells him about me, or what he was hoping to learn by asking.

So I want him to answer the question because it has me curious and suspicious.

Additionally, I suspect ShoesandHats for insisting on a terrible argument and continuing to try and justify it. And finding convenient ways to be lazy.

Yes, i didn't but i was looking from a more logical point as 3 scum would make a BM a very quick game, and since this is vanilla mafia i also thought about 2. But like i said i didn't want to disprove the possibility of 3 when i wrote my previous post.

There's no variance in the number of scum in this gametype.

There are only two scum. You can safely discount the possibility of there being three scum because that's not actually a possibility.

Actually, that's a good point. Though now that I've said that if I actually try to put pressure on him he'll know to keep cool.

Oh, well, I guess now you can't question him, he'll know it's coming.

What a convenient excuse to take the lazy way out.

It doesn't matter if a player knows pressure is coming or not. They can still handle it poorly even if they know that it's coming. This is forum mafia; any player can look at the questions, freak out, go outside for a walk, watch a movie, do his homework, eat dinner, and then answer the question when he's completely calm about it.

Refusing to pressure a player because he'll see it coming is a complete non-issue.

As Jim once said: Scum rarely put together this sort of super-villian-esque plans.

That's hardly super-villain-ey. Super-villainey is scheming to build a giant death ray. This is just regular scum tactics.

No, the supervillain you should be thinking of is not Ernst Stavro Blofeld, but James Moriarty.

Any theory that requires the scum to play perfectly deceitfully, in the manner of James Moriarty, is usually wrong, because no player plays like Moriarty. It's much, much easier to be genuine, even for the scumteam, which is why you tend to see scum give players shit to other players for mostly legitimate reason. If two players had reason to fight with each other, it's probably because they had good reason, or good pretense, to do so, and most likely not because they wanted to make a masterful show of it.

Further, any theory that requires two beginners to play brilliantly is also usually wrong, for what should be obvious reasons.

This is exactly why I say that they are just a wee too eager to go at each other in particular, rather than anyone else. While it is a common scum tactic to simply ignore your partner for the most part, there's another tactic on the other end of the spectrum, which is to simply attack each other relentlessly. The goal of it being to draw suspicion away by saying "Look at us, we're far to aggressive towards each other to ever possibly be scum buddies!"

I can safely guarantee you that Urist Imiknorris would guide the scumteam away from a tactic like this.

This is a terrible tactic, since it draws attention towards both members of the scumteam in a way that does not favor them. What happens if one scum is successful in his attacks? He lynches his partner. Unless they did this perfectly (see above), then the remaining scum player will not get away completely clean from his partner's lynch, and the tendency is for this to backfire horrendously.

I don't know why you're insisting on justifying this terrible vote this way. I think you just want to be lazy.
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Nabic

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #156 on: October 23, 2012, 03:20:42 am »

Sorry for the delay Jim Groovester and Mr.Zero.
Nabic, you missed a question:
What's the import one way or the other?
The importance was it seemed certain meta plays you were advocating (ones that out newbies), and others that you were dissuading (ones that out ICs). However, I guess the former being a scumtell is an adequate excuse.

With the question, I was asking to seek clarification for my confusion at the apparent contradiction.

Do you feel the need to act town?
Don't you?
Jim Groovester, For clarification, shouldn't town be more concerned with finding mafia than acting town? Only mafia need concern themselves with acting like town should. I mean, of course acting like town helps you not get lynched, but staying alive with the mafia doesn't help if you aren't lynching them.


Captain Ford: i hereby welcome our lurker back to the land of the living, could you share your opinions/questions? Cause it's awfully quiet around here.

Nabic: I'd also love that you come back in here, or should i ask some more questions before you come out from your safety hole?
Mr.Zero, Would you like to ask me any actual questions, or are you just lashing out at anyone you can in a vain attempt to look like you're scum-hunting?

Xny: Why didn't you question other people besides  me during the 3-4 page discussion? Didn't they emit enough suspicion? Also what do you think of Nerjin suddenly jumping into the fray?

Nerjin: Same questions as XNY(expects last one) but.... why did you help XNY? Weren't you confident enough that your buddy would succeed?
In your vote and FOSes, you pointed at your attackers (OMGUS). Jim Groovester says this isn't a problem if you have a reason for doing so. Your questions mainly boil down to "Why are you attacking me and not others?" What reasons (aside from them voting for you) do you have for suspecting xny and Nerjin?


Read my previous posts. I have nothing more to add to them at this point.
Nerjin, If you're truly trying to show others that Mr.Zero is scum, this post isn't helpful. Although you have evidence from Mr.Zero's previous posts, it reads more to me like Mr.Zero is new rather than scum. What are your thoughts on his latest statements?


borno, Currently, you're voting for Mr.Zero because of a "slip" and an OMGUS. You said to him:
I wouldn't vote for anyone without good reason (Unless if it was RVS), if that's what you're asking.
What "slip" or evidence against Mr.Zero makes you most suspicious?

@Either IC, because borno was subbed in for Kingfisher1112, should do we basically give him a free day? Without extending further, there's not much time to get a read on him.


ShoesandHats, You've been reluctant to vote, waiting until after the first extension to make your only vote for Mr.Zero. To be fair, Mr.Zero did this as well. However, you've tried to back it up by saying they're on a scumteam together. I think it's unlikely two newbie mafia could pull off what you say they've done. Your vote seems more like a hop on the bandwagon for Mr.Zero than a genuine attempt to find scum. Mr.Zero and xny have been playing differently. xny agressively questions for scum and applies pressure with a vote. Mr.Zero questioned others, but without the pressure of a vote. I'd think that if they were coordinating together, they would have similar patterns in scum-hunting.

You say that xny and Mr.Zero's tactic is the opposite of ignoring the scum partner, but instead to
... simply attack each other relentlessly. The goal of it being to draw suspicion away by saying "Look at us, we're far to aggressive towards each other to ever possibly be scum buddies!"

However, xny has been questioning others throughout the game, not just Mr.Zero. Mr.Zero has mainly attacked his own aggressors. It doesn't seem to me like they're staging a fight. Do you think their "plan" is working if Mr.Zero is about to get lynched? What other evidence (if any) do you have to support your vote?
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Mr.Zero

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #157 on: October 23, 2012, 07:47:18 am »

PFP;Extend, i agree on the borno thingy. But also i don't think day has reached it's climax yet.
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Nabic

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #158 on: October 23, 2012, 09:58:44 am »

PFP;Extend, i agree on the borno thingy. But also i don't think day has reached it's climax yet.
What borno thingy?

I'm okay with an Extend. Hopefully we can get a lynch without needing another. To me, the day feels like it's just dragging on.
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Mr.Zero

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #159 on: October 23, 2012, 10:17:30 am »

I think you've just mentioned it in your own post......

Quote
@Either IC, because borno was subbed in for Kingfisher1112, should do we basically give him a free day? Without extending further, there's not much time to get a read on him.
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Shakerag

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #160 on: October 23, 2012, 11:01:38 am »

Captain Ford:
Nerjin, if you were cop and you knew for a fact there was a town doctor in the game (other than yourself), would you claim on the first day to draw the night kill to yourself, and potentially save a townie from being killed at night?
[I think it's safe to say we're past the RVS phase.  Let's focus on game-relevant questions now.]
Also, you vote ShoesandHats ... but with no further pressure/followup.  How certain are you he's scum?  Do you actually suspect Nerjin, or are you just going through the motions?


Jim Groovester, For clarification, shouldn't town be more concerned with finding mafia than acting town? Only mafia need concern themselves with acting like town should. I mean, of course acting like town helps you not get lynched, but staying alive with the mafia doesn't help if you aren't lynching them.
[I'll take this one.  It's more simple than you imagine.  The #1 way to "look/act town" is to scumhunt aggressively.  Therefore, the more you try and find scum, the more you look like town.  That's the only "acting like town" you all need to concern yourselves with.]


@Either IC, because borno was subbed in for Kingfisher1112, should do we basically give him a free day? Without extending further, there's not much time to get a read on him.
[It's difficult to deal with replacements.  Wait until you get someone replacing in at LYLO.  Basically, take your reads of the player before they replaced out and make note of them.  You can't question about them anymore, but your impressions can remain.  I feel that grilling a person replacing in is a good course of action, so that you can get as much of a read on the new person as possible to make up for the time they weren't in the game.]

zombie urist

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #161 on: October 23, 2012, 11:49:25 am »

Current vote count:

Nerjin:
ShoesandHats [3]: Captain Ford, Mr.Zero, Nabic
Borno:
Captain Ford [1]: Shakerag
Mr.Zero [4]:xny, Nerjin, ShoesandHats, Borno
Nabic [1]: Jim Groovester
xny:
Jim Groovester:
Shakerag:

Not voting:

Extension requests: 2
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Day 1 will end Tuesday, October 23 at ~11:00 P.M. PST.
Day ends in ~13 hours.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 03:01:23 pm by zombie urist »
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xny

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #162 on: October 23, 2012, 02:13:58 pm »

PFP

Sorry for inactivity, will try to post in the next few hours.
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Tylui

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #163 on: October 23, 2012, 02:35:40 pm »

Tuesday, Oct. 22nd!? That's not until next year!

Also PTW.
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Captain Ford

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Re: BM XXXVII: Welcome to Zombo Mafia - Day 1 - The only limit is yourself
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2012, 09:20:27 pm »

Just got back from a business meeting and need to go to the gym. Will probably collapse from exhaustion afterwards.

Posting to Extend.
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