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[StubbornAlcoholic]

So the last topic on dogs I found with a search was super old, so forgive me if this has been done to death in the past.

I've only had limited experience breeding dogs/war dogs, but have to admit I've been less than impressed so far. Are they in need of some love or is this grudge of mine born of noobishness?

From what I can gather, they're apparently good against unarmoured targets only. So I thought to myself, "Fair enough if they can't kill an enraged metal dragon with laser eyes, but a pack of them should do okay against bog-standard lanky Kobolds."

After waiting a whole year for my dogs to mature so they'd breed (and additionally the training time to convert the originals into War Dogs), I decided to test them out by tying up a lone Goblin in a cell, completely disarming him (including clothes/armour), and then sending two War Dogs against him simultaneously.

Checking out the War Dog description, both were "gigantic", with no negative description. Gigantic slavering beasts with huge teeth versus malnourished unarmed prisoner. I think you can see where this is going

Anyway, long story short I watched as both dogs bit the Gobbo over and over again, the Gobbo simply threw punches. After a while one dog was vomiting. The other broke it's tail and got stunned. Then one bled to death. Then the other sustained a leg injury, followed by an artery being opened, then it died too.

This just seems kind of stupid to me. I could have sent a completely inexperienced Dwarf Recruit into the same situation, and the Goblin would likely have been dead without even causing an injury. Worse still, the loss of the dogs was enough to make their "owners" seriously unhappy, even more so than the usual happiness hit upon losing Urist McNewbmigrant.

I'm not sure if I'll bother training up any more of them since it just seems like a waste of resources. The one useful application they have is spotting thieves in the first place, and even then a standard Dwarf milling about is just as good if not better (because they will run away instead of getting slaughtered after spotting the thief).

Does anyone else think they need a little bit of a boost or some auxilary function (other than being butcherable!) that'd make them more useful?

[GreatWyrmGold]

They're gigantic for dogs, which still makes them much smaller than goblins. Also, the goblin probably had military skills. Size+skills>numbers when the numbers side only has one more.

[knutor]

Checking out the War Dog description, both were "gigantic", with no negative description. Gigantic slavering beasts with huge teeth versus malnourished unarmed prisoner. I think you can see where this is going

I think the item ya wanna look for in the desc among other positive things is Fat.  Skinny is not good.  Fat is good.  I have dabbled with this a little and could have sworn Fat improved or got higher on dogs, when I put them on top of a bone refuse stockpile.

Breeding is no fun, I agree.  I stopped doing it, because of lack of clear descriptions in the necessary windows.  Its too hit or miss.  I just let natural selection provide me with the biggest ones.  I always ask for dog cages during mountainhome meetings, not because I like to breed, but because its a twofer.  A cheap metal and a dog leather.

Although I do find them useful.  Maybe ya should try a restraint.  They don't die so often if they don't charge each and every uninvited guest.  But solely use them to sniff out the cloakers.  I'm using a war dog, directly across from a murder hole.  He's spotted stealth a couple times.  As packs and in war however, they do suck. 

I think tho, they suck for a reason.  This adds to the need to tame and train exotics, if they were good, who would want a War Tiger?

[StubbornAlcoholic]

They're gigantic for dogs, which still makes them much smaller than goblins. Also, the goblin probably had military skills. Size+skills>numbers when the numbers side only has one more.

I don't know what breed the game represents (poodles judging by their performance ), but imagine stripping naked and fistfighting two "gigantic" Rottweilers!

Okay, appeal to realism is pretty much an invalid argument in this game, I acknowledge that. And I guess their propensity to "latch" onto limbs is good for backing soldiers up. I was just a little disappointed that they lack the ability to actually kill anything unless bred for 30 years so that you get about 400 dogs and unleash them all on an unusually small mouse.

[GreatWyrmGold]

They're gigantic for dogs, which still makes them much smaller than goblins. Also, the goblin probably had military skills. Size+skills>numbers when the numbers side only has one more.

I don't know what breed the game represents (poodles judging by their performance ), but imagine stripping naked and fistfighting two "gigantic" Rottweilers!

Let me first imagine that I am a trained goblin soldier who grew up in a world like Medieval Europe, but more war-torn and full of monsters, specifically in tundras, caverns, and/or evil areas, the deadliest areas in the world.

Dogs are okay against smaller wild animals, like badgers. And that was a normal dog, on his own. The problem is, large numbers of dogs does not make them able to kill things large times their size. You need bigger numbers, enough that the dogs latch on faster than they can be shaken off, so that the enemy passes out from exhaustion.

[Oaktree]

I've seen a few take a kobold down with some luck.  Seen more dogs get gutted by same kobolds.  Daggers are sharper than teeth.

I still embark with a few and use them for door guards early on.  Hunting or war trained when I get around to it.  And their real job is to slow up intruders until a local guard unit can deploy from a nearby barracks.

For stealth detection I build a section above the gate with grates and "pasture" a few male dogs or birds up there and lock them in.  That stops from from fleeing too far or running downstairs to attack the intruder.

Dogs just don't quite have the size.  I've also used war trained cave crocodiles.  They do better with kobolds and the unarmored snatchers, but basically will not beat up armed and armored goblins unless they heavily outnumber them.

[Andal]

Generally, they are next to useless one on one. I tend to breed them in vast quantities, and cram them into a single cage, located near my entrance, connected to a lever.

This is the Dog Bomb.

I find it does a decent job of slowing down and occasionally wounding invaders long enough for my military to get there.

And in a pinch, I can make dog roasts for everyone.

[gbrngfol]

@StubbornAlcoholic forget about dogs, they grow and breed too slowly so use Modrabbits instead. I can give the raws for the ones I use if you want.

[Captain Willy]

Meh I always make my dogs war dogs it only takes a second and now there is a bunch of war dogs roaming around. I don't expect too much from them.

[gbrngfol]

I do the same with the rabbits, it's hilarious how violent they can be.

[Mr Space Cat]

@StubbornAlcoholic forget about dogs, they grow and breed too slowly so use Modrabbits instead. I can give the raws for the ones I use if you want.

If the war rabbits aren't grazers then consider me interested. A load of war rabbits bundled into a cage at the front door to swarm a gobbo siege is just too hilarious to turn down.

[misko27]

Really, the function of them is to absorb injuries. Dwarf fortress doesn't discrimitate. You could easily have been sending very large poodles as well as bulldogs. The solution, of course, is more dogs. And Grizzly bears. Besides, dogsdon't have a killing blow. Biting is painful, but guess what? I set a naked thief alone in a arena with 5 war dogs. They accumalated 20+ pages of injuries before killing him. Its death of a thousand cuts. Dwarf fortress doesn't model the attack typethat dogs do in real life, so thats why.

Besides, how many people do you know that have been killed by Rottweilers? Not injured, KILLED. Wikipedia lists 18 reported kills last year. 18. only 1 was a Rottweiler. Most of the victims were less then6 years old, many wre just a few months old, or even days old. The rest are old people, and 1 40 year old. Most dogs were pitbulls. And you know what? DF simply doesn't simulate the kind of Gnawing behaviour dogs use.

[gbrngfol]

@StubbornAlcoholic forget about dogs, they grow and breed too slowly so use Modrabbits instead. I can give the raws for the ones I use if you want.

If the war rabbits aren't grazers then consider me interested. A load of war rabbits bundled into a cage at the front door to swarm a gobbo siege is just too hilarious to turn down.

They were grazers but after starving half their population to death I changed that.

[thiosk]

War dogs are best given to no military units.  Assign them to your legendary workers or outdoorsmen, when trouble hits, the dog gives the enemy a target that charges while the high value guy gets away.

Sure, he gets sad, but a good meal in the dining hall and a few slugs of sunshine and he'll be over it.

I'm currently trying to get a breeding pair of anything else.  I want gorillas.  Or lions.  I'm inundated with dude lions and mangorillas.  I have oodles of rhinoceri, but the giant pasture requirement sort of makes taming them impossible.

[misko27]

War dogs are best given to no military units.  Assign them to your legendary workers or outdoorsmen, when trouble hits, the dog gives the enemy a target that charges while the high value guy gets away.

Sure, he gets sad, but a good meal in the dining hall and a few slugs of sunshine and he'll be over it.

I'm currently trying to get a breeding pair of anything else.  I want gorillas.  Or lions.  I'm inundated with dude lions and mangorillas.  I have oodles of rhinoceri, but the giant pasture requirement sort of makes taming them impossible.

Grizzly bears man. Change your life. War0trainable, non-grazer, and are alot stronger then Dogs. Seriously. I just got breeding pair, civilians are not even bothered by sieges anymore.